Required Viewer Update to 1.19.0 [POSTPONED]
Wednesday, March 12th, 2008 at 2:36 PM by: Joshua Linden[Update - 2008-03-12]
Based on Resident feedback and our acknowledgment that having more than one supported viewer version in use is beneficial, we’ve decided to push off the date that 1.19.0 will become the oldest supported viewer until the time Second Life 1.19.1 is released - 2-3 weeks from now. We expect 1.19.1 to be the most stable viewer so far, based on our new crash analysis data and focus on getting the crash rate down, but want to make sure that a choice of viewers is available. Once 1.19.1 is released, Residents will be prompted to upgrade, but download links to 1.19.0 will also be provided for users who may experience system compatibility issues.
. . . . . . . . .
After Wednesday, March 12th, the 1.19.0 viewer will be required to access Second Life.
At this time, Residents using older versions of the viewer will be required to download an update when attempting to login.
- This does not affect the First Look: WindLight viewer, which is based on 1.19.0
- This does not affect the First Look: Dazzle viewer, which is based on 1.19.0
- This does not affect the 1.19.1 Release Candidate viewer expected to be available this week for initial testing
- Custom viewers built from older releases of the source code may be blocked, but only those which are reporting “Second Life Release” as the channel and a pre-1.19.0 version during the login process; a code update/re-compile may be necessary in those cases.
Read on for more details…
We are providing this notice in advance to ensure that all Residents have plenty of time to update, that any potential issues can be sorted out, and so that any facilities such as classrooms with pre-installed Second Life viewers can update in time. Our statistics show that of the production viewers provided by Linden Lab (i.e. not release candidates, first looks, etc), more than 60% of residents have already updated to 1.19.0. Only 10% of residents are still running viewers older than 1.18.5. We hope that this will not cause much of an inconvenience to those Residents running earlier versions.
As of March 5th 2008, the following main distribution channel viewers are supported:
- 1.19.0(5) - released March 3rd, 2008
- 1.18.5(3) - released November 29, 2007
- 1.18.4(3) - released November 7, 2007
- 1.18.3(5) - released September 28, 2007
- 1.18.2(1) - released September 19, 2007
Back in July 2007 with Second Life 1.18.0 we gained the capability to advance the client/server protocols in Second Life without requiring viewer updates. Since then, we have only required updates twice (here, here), in both cases due to security issues. This is in contrast to the roughly monthly required updates prior to July 2007.
We remain committed to making viewer updates optional when possible and requiring mandatory updates as infrequently as possible. Generally, a mandatory upgrade is required when:
- Security - where use of a viewer puts Residents at risk. Such an issue compelled us to block 1.18.0 and 1.18.1 viewers and issue the 1.18.2(1) update.
- Support - supporting older viewers puts a burden on our support teams; many issues reported by residents are fixed in newer viewer versions
- Consistent experience - for example, if we add new permission capabilities or LSL functions, older viewers would be unable to display or compile these; an action could be blocked with no feedback as to why
- Advancing the platform - to solve certain problems (bugs, scaling, etc) it may be necessary to change or modify the client/server protocols. While we have the capability to support older versions of the viewer with newer versions of the server, this often hinders development or requires server-side inefficiency which we would prefer to limit.
The decision to make Second Life 1.19.0 a required update is not taken lightly. Besides the over 500 issues resolved since the last required update, some of the more compelling reasons include:
- Improved crash reports and viewer statistics – 1.19.0 introduces a new crash reporting mechanism that will make fixing crashes much easier
- Support for moderation within group chats – an upcoming feature which requires that all viewers support the new infrastructure, already built into the 1.19.0 viewer
- Voice support – eliminate problems with mixing voice from older and newer viewer versions
- Elimination of nuisance exploits – e.g. ability to force users to teleport when profile is opened
- Require updated QuickTime libraries to avoid security issues
March 6th, 2008 at 10:06 AM
This is not good news, after trying the unmodified 1.19, I went back to the Nicholaz version, which is far more stable and less buggy. Just yesterday I helped two people regrade back to 1.19. Nicholaz notes that he will not be able to do a new version of the viewer with his old patches.
What would be helpful would be to roll forward many of the Nicholaz fixes, and make the development open source, as opposed to open patching. This way when future required updates come, they won’t come at the cost of the contributions that others have made.
(And being rolled back to Havok1 on our sim isn’t helping my mood either…
March 6th, 2008 at 10:15 AM
[...] Second Life Blog Required Viewer Update to 1.19.0 on Wednesday, March 12th Quote from the site - After Wednesday, March 12th, the 1.19.0 viewer will be required to access [...]
March 6th, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Would love to try the new viewer! but I was logged out of SL . I recived a Message ” you have been logged out of Second Life by an Administrator your account will not be availible till 08-03-06 10:39:01 PST” what is that all about? Man you guys make sl frustrateing at times!
March 6th, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Is the bug with the friends list not working (continually loading) fixed in 1.19.0 now? It caused me to downgrade back to 1.18.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:19 AM
I am currently running on the 1.19.0 (5) viewer and have suffered the disabling of my ability to set permissions on objects I create or own. I have mentioned this and it is widely talked about on slexchange.com as well as widely ignored on this blog during yesterday’s server restart announcement. So I know this issue of Permissions being Broken is widespread and serious.
I hope that this will finally help break everyones permissions settings uniformly, so that LL will stop ignoring the issue and take care of it. It’s a showstopper.
By the way I missed the part of being rolled back to Havoc1 is that true for all havoc4 tester sims?
March 6th, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Oh boy. Everytime, I hope and pray there are bugs fixed when this happens. And everytime, I find some fixes, but some new problems right along with them. The ratio of Bugs to the Megabyte of code seems to be a constant. But hey, I’m an incurable optimist - maybe THIS one will be the most glitch free and stable client ever. I’d like to think my premium money is going to pay a programmer somewhere.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:22 AM
Hey, thank you, Joshua for a detailed, in-depth explanation!
Hopefully, all the people who’ve been venting all this time about ‘fixing’ SL will understand why the new viewer is required (it helps ‘fix’ SL) and do’n't go too far off the ranting ledge.
Mostly, my feedback is a really BIG thank you for such a detailed explanation and clarifying WHY the new viewer will be a required update.
Kind regards to all!
March 6th, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Well, people still come talk about how their SL is messed up. First, SL, as I understand it, is still an ongoing project. Sort of a beta. And as with any beta, bugs will occur. But, we have things like the jira issue tracker, which works, and LL does read it. So people, please, keep reporting bugs in the issue tracker. If your bug is already there, support the entry. Or at least know that it’s there and being worked on. Not all is lost. Cheers!
March 6th, 2008 at 10:40 AM
And once again, LL forces very lame UI changes down your throat…
For all the residents who hate the new v1.19 UI:
http://sldev.free.fr/
March 6th, 2008 at 10:40 AM
It would be nice if LL would incorporate the many fixes and especially enhancements that Nicholaz has done recently into the standard viewer. His custom xml files that keep the ‘old school’ look and feel are the primary reason I use his version.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Will there be a Windlight Viewer based on the current (great) Viewer 1.19.0(5) ???
March 6th, 2008 at 10:50 AM
@7 Ari
I’m sure that this will solve ALL of the problems that everyone has been complaining about for so long in one brilliant move and shut all of those naysayers up forever and ever. Really.
NOT!
There are many more issues in SL than just using different viewer versions. Also.. why *require* the release when LL committed to the idea of allowing the grid to support multiple protocols specifically to eliminate the need for mandatory upgrades.
Contrary to popular belief… there are not people who simply complain at everything. The only thing that I and many others has ever complained about is the fact that LL seems to be very poor at listening to it’s own residents.
Sincerely,
Anony Mouse
March 6th, 2008 at 10:51 AM
Oh my, you’d think you’d fix this before forcing it on people.
I have since updgrading to 1.19.0 viewer had consistant “Out of memory” errors after an hour or so of use.I get it with the Windlight viewer too, which as you say is based on the 1.19.0 viewer. There is clearly a memory leak in the code somewhere.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:58 AM
This is good news. Thank you for discontinuing support of the older, more buggy viewers. I’m using the new viewer now, and I have no problems with setting permissions or viewing the full Contacts List. I’m glad to see LL is continuing to fix the bugs and keep the software updated.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Anonymouse, eventually protocol changes do render older viewers obselete, even with het grid. Linden is still evolving the protocol to more reliable HTTP/TCP messaging. In the end this will help fix things like objects reverting when you edit them, double messages on IM, etc.
Angel, did you see if there’s a Jira on that issue? It would help out a lot. The point of the RC viewers is to get bugs like that sorted out, so it really helps if people report the problems they are having with them.
March 6th, 2008 at 11:01 AM
this all sounds like Mutiny on the SL bounty to me
if it works i am all for it
if it does not then what?
my friends list is so bad i have to use search just to send an IM or see if someone is on in SL LOL
March 6th, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Thanks for your feedback everyone, I see a lot of bugs discussed above and wanted to make sure that everyone knew that the best way to alert Linden Lab to bugs within Release Candidates, First Look or final Release Second Life software, is to file an issue in the public JIRA tracker (directions below):
* Go to jira.secondlife.com and login.
* Create a new issue in “Project: Viewer” and “Issue Type: Bug”.
* Make sure to set it to “Affects Version/s” to the proper viewer you are using
March 6th, 2008 at 11:15 AM
This was already discussed on SLDEV. We NEED an optional rollout to test the new group chat features BEFORE it becomes mandatory.
March 6th, 2008 at 11:17 AM
My fellow residents just be glad we have a gripe review here but griping about new mandatory viewers will not stop SL progress!
March 6th, 2008 at 11:21 AM
As founder of the group “Digital Invalids” I don’t have issue. But just what is that little white dot above my head ? and what does it mean ? hehe thanks!
March 6th, 2008 at 11:27 AM
The white dot means you have “voice chat” enabled. When you talk the dot will be replaced by a little “radio waves” symbol to show people around you who’s talking.
March 6th, 2008 at 11:28 AM
white dot = voice
March 6th, 2008 at 11:31 AM
ok, just downloaded the latest client and all I get when connecting is “Unable to connect to SL. Despite our best efforts something unexpected has happened’
Windlight fires up ok - any ideas ??
March 6th, 2008 at 11:40 AM
ive said it before making everyone download things 15 million times will break someones registry if they dont have the means to fix it with a cleaner. Bad bad LL
March 6th, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Cite:
“Custom viewers built from older releases of the source code may be blocked, but only those which are reporting “Second Life Release” as the channel and a pre-1.19.0 version during the login process; a code update/re-compile may be necessary in those cases.”
And what will happen if one happens to run a viewer built on 1.18.5 source that does NOT report “Second Life Release” as channel? (That’s anyway configurable through the gridargs I believe?)
I say as Henri:
“And once again, LL forces very lame UI changes down your throat…”
Go get his viewer that thankfully does exactly what the lab official viewer should have been doing, namely works with a great user interface!
Thanks Henri :*
http://sldev.free.fr/
It would also be interesting to get an explanation on exactly why there is a fored update now and not some genreal tech talk trying to hide the actual facts? The only really valid feature mentioned above is the upcoming feature that isn’t deployed yet.
Age verification sneaking up on us again?
Anyway… Thanks for at least making the Linux viewer beta after way too long time.
The lab does something for a stable world at least
March 6th, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Aya: I just went through all the registry entries associated with second life and linden labs, and there’s nothing there that can possibly “break someone’s registry”. The only thing I can see that might happen even if you deleted *all* the files in SL without cleaning the registry at all would be that you *might* get a different error message trying to open a “secondlife:” URL.
March 6th, 2008 at 11:47 AM
okay, so i will spend rest of my lindens before i need to go away from SL because the Security-holes starts with 1.19.
the 1.18.3 is the most stable viewer since voice was implemented.
and, LL-eployees, please tell ur CUSTOMERS, that u turned ON voice for all and they need to set it back in preferences.
and now i need to use the silly search too…. arrgghhhhh
so sick to do this update mandatory
March 6th, 2008 at 12:00 PM
My main concern is how scalable the render pipeline is. I appreciate all the stuff we can do for top end systems but it’s equally important to be able to really scale back the pipe so older systems in a wider performance range don’t get left locked out of the grid. Some of us don’t have the ability to upgrade to the new architecture.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:31 PM
now the lindens are complete sick, to make a client mandantory like the 1.19 for all that not work like the ladt stable viewer.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:47 PM
As one of the “rogue 10%” that uses older viewers (1.18.2.1), I don’t use the older one just by choice. I use it because the newer viewers.. umm.. CRASH! Im sorry but i don’t pay my account and tier fees to spend my time being a crash report test dummy. I need the SL viewer to just work, and whatever LL did after 1.18.5.3 wasn’t it.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:59 PM
That is unfortunate, as 1.19 now consistently crashes me in under 10 minutes in SL.
March 6th, 2008 at 1:12 PM
I only hope Nicholaz Beresford and the great people compiling his fast rendering, stable and reliable viewers for the different platforms will get his 1.19 based client out fast. The official one and his alpha and beta counterparts are a nightmare.
March 6th, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Hello
without mentioning ALL of the bugs, as they have been mentioned often in the past and here, I would like to agree with Angel #13 in the responses!
This memory issue is one of the worse bugs I have come across… I know it’s not my computer, at least it wasn’t until I upgraded to the latest viewer. Good luck with the fixes and thank you.
March 6th, 2008 at 1:40 PM
There are too many ‘bugs’ in the current viewer to make it mandatory. With all of the reported issues concerning 1.19 I am suprised it even made it out of RC (it was not ready in my opinion). Besides bugs that have been confirmed like: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5098 (which while not major, still should have been addressed before taking the viewer out of RC), I crash much more often on 1.19 than on the 1.18.5.3 version which I am currently using now - and no, it’s not a hardware/driver issue, it’s viewer issues. Making this a mandatory upgrade is a bad idea until the 1.19 viewer is more stable - taking away the choice also goes against what LL has been telling us these past months.
While I understand the needs in terms of bug reporting etc, LL needs to listen to the people submitting bug reports now, many of whom are saying 1.19 still has some major issues. I am greatly appreciative of the improvements in features I have seen in the new viewer, many of which address some long standing issues, however, there is still some work that needs to be done before ‘forcing’ this on members.
March 6th, 2008 at 1:54 PM
It is good to know that the 1.19 client has improved crash reporting. It is going to need it because it does nothing else other than crash for me. It crashes so fast there is no time to even get things rezzed up around me so I have no idea what is the problem. I have tried both 1.19.04 and 1.19.05 with no results OTHER than a crash right after logging in and went back to the 1.18.5(3) so I could continue to access SL without crashing.
So…………now what? Do I end SL on Mar 15?
March 6th, 2008 at 1:57 PM
i would like to upgrade to the new viewers but i have stuck with 1.18.4 (3) due to the fact that after this one, i was told filters or something were put into voice. My voice tends to cut out allot (as well as some of my friends) when i use the newer ones and my closest friend gets annoyed as all get out. We use voice chat allot and there for have stuck with the 1.18.4. Is there a way to shut the filter off if there is even one so that we wont get so many cut outs? i have tried talking louder but cannot all the time due to other people in my house, and tried messing with some settings on my pc but nothing seems to work.
March 6th, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Tongue-in-cheek commentary:
LINDEN LAB OFFICIAL POLICY ON NEW RELEASES AND BUG FIXES
1. Release new Client Viewer software, which purportedly fixes numerous issues on the JIRA and corrects security risks.
2. Examine new JIRA postings regarding new bugs and security risks presented by the new release.
3. Don’t worry about posts pointing out this once worked just fine and apparently has been broken by a supposed bug fix.
4. Release BLOG post containing apology for inconvenience and regret that so many people can no longer log in.
5. Express sympathy, being sure to state, “We’re just as upset as you are. This isn’t fun for us either. We’re really working hard on getting this fixed.”
6. Forget all that mush and go back to creating more fancy toys.
7. Have Torley release another one of his legitimately useful Tips and Tricks blogs to make everyone forget the fiasco.
:DD
(Sorry, could not resist…
March 6th, 2008 at 2:08 PM
“Custom viewers built from older releases of the source code may be blocked, but only those which are reporting “Second Life Release” as the channel and a pre-1.19.0 version during the login process; a code update/re-compile may be necessary in those cases.”
To keep using the Nicholaz version add the string “-channel Nicholaz” (without the quotes) to the end of the shortcut. You will then get the out of date warning screens but still be able to log in.
March 6th, 2008 at 2:19 PM
I’m going to smack somebody.
“Elimination of nuisance exploits – e.g. ability to force users to teleport when profile is opened”
That would not be an exploit if the browser was loaded intentionally. I’m assuming it can still be done with an embedded or external browser?
March 6th, 2008 at 2:20 PM
1.19 is a dog for me. Constant screen freeze ups. Sometimes requiring a force close. Then I end up eith the “despite our best efforts” message until i reboot my pc. There is a bad memory leak somewhere in this viewer. Other bugs abound. The reason so many people have it is because it was incorectly listed as a mandatory viewer when it was first put up. If it hadnt been for that, i wouldn’t be running it. The old viewer that is still on my other PCs is much more stable.
@17 Sorry, after posting some critical bugs in jira and having quite a few votes for them and seeing them still untouched and unassigned for over 7 months now, I sort of lost faith in the JIRA system. I don’t/won’t use it anymore as it is obvious that it is pointless.
I pay a pretty decent amount every month to be here. As much a car payment actually. If someone buys a car from *insert famous maker here* and it had this many things wrong with it……. If you went to the dealership for instance and said, this new car you sold me, it cuts off everytime i stop at a redlight (ie client crashes on pan/zoom or memory leak) and the dealer said - “oh yea, we are aware of that, you will just have to deal with it untill we get around to fixing it.” You would be livid, this would be unacceptable. At least with a car there are lemon laws to protect the consumer from that sort of thing. Unfortunatly, here we only have two choices - keep paying and deal with it, or don’t drive. To bad i like to drive so much
March 6th, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Windlight and Dazzle will be affected. In Vista, if 1.19.0 is running then Windlight and Dazzle both launch straight into a Send Error Report on Crash dialogue. And yes I will be raising a JIRA isssue on this now that you arte to make 1.19.0 compulsory.
March 6th, 2008 at 2:24 PM
The new version works great i have never once crashed with it.
Thanks LL for making this AWESOME viewer mandatory! im so sick and tired to ppl saying ‘!quit’ to me.
If your computer crashes or SL doesnt run good for you it MUST be cuz your computer is crappy. buy a new computer you cheap people!!!!
1.19 FOREVER Linden Love For Free!
March 6th, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Hey all, I’m doing good with the new viewer, accept for the memory leak. Other than that, it’s fine…..Just one thing that is really irritating me!!! Why did you shut off the blinking tabs for IM’s? I keep ignoring my friends cause the tab’s are not blinking to let me know they are IMing me. I’ve had a few get ticked off about it…If anyone here can help me figure out how to get the blinking tabs back, it will be much appreciated…Thank you! That is all…Carry On!
March 6th, 2008 at 2:59 PM
I currently to not run 1.19 on any computer I install SL on for my self or friends. I have installed it (then quickly downgraded it on the following machines)
- Pentium 4 2.6Ghz, 512M Ram, 8600GT, XP
- Pentium D 805, 1G Ram, Radeon 9700pro, XP
- Pentium D 805, 1G Ram, Geforce 4600 Ti, XP
All of these systems met the minimum requirements (though not recommended) but none of them could run 1.19 in world. Every one would freeze or crash on connecting to regions. Even with latest drivers. All ove them run 1.18 without problem. Since the people who play SL on themm are not ‘gamers’ they probably aren’t going to upgrade just to be into SL, crappy computers or not 1.18 runs fine on the above machines, 1.19 does not run at all. Once again LL seemingly on the cusp having a content user base manages to alienate a large segment of it.
You know, most corporations would consider 10% of their customer base significant, not “only”.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Those that want the nicholaz patches on the 1.19.0 viewer, take a look at the cool viewer, this is 1.19.0.5 with all the patches that can be made to work with 1.19.0.5
March 6th, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Get your first real CTO, and have her, or him review your deployment process..
.. have them lose the ‘choose your own work’ approach,
.. have them lead internally and proactively communicate with the residents
.. have them assure a higher standard of quality before even posting an RC
.. and then consider the forced update.
Hans Solo quote: I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:39 PM
@42
“If your computer crashes or SL doesnt run good for you it MUST be cuz your computer is crappy. buy a new computer you cheap people!!!!”
I am sick and tired of this kind of comment. Look at the LL metrics and you´ll notice that the average SL experience (before 1.19) runs on amazing 12-15 frames per second.
If LL decides to kill even more performance, so be it, This would be nothing but economical suicide.
Yes, right, you only need 3 fps to figure out where to camp with your bots.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:50 PM
Guys I think it is obvious how this is working out. It really doesn’t matter if we whine here or on the bug report, whether we pull our involvement completely or take to scratching our behinds for better service, the metrics of money speaks for itself.
http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php
People are spending more and more each month in SL, while the money keeps on rolling in do you seriously think anything will get better? The Lindens don’t care how long term users of the system are affected by new clients, this one not working… well it minimizes how many people can get on to complain…
As long as there are people spending money here, as long as there are people getting great service and not experiencing invent loss, crashes all the time, taking half an hour to log yourself in, what do they care?
A forced viewer update of a viewer that does not work great? Oh well just a side issue. I used to sing the praises of SL and the Lindens, but I have become jaded by this treatment of basically what amounts to her customers. We are treated like scum. If you don’t know any of the lingo or don’t understand what is causing the issues they don’t want to know, even then people who have a lot of resources and understanding are ignored.
Roll on competition, you never know, Second Life may become better for it!
March 6th, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Inventory - Unable to access Menu when I Right Click on an Item or Folder.
This issue been in effect for me for ALL releases, including Windlight, AFTER 1.18.3.5 and naturally it is still an issue for me in 1.19.0(5)
1. Open Inventory
2. Right Click on and Inventory Folder or an Item
3. UNABLE to access menu … it flashes open but not enough time for me to scroll down
I am ABLE to right click on a rezzed object, access its pie and edit ect. I am ABLE to access right click menu in “File”, “Create” and “Sort” in the Inventory! I have checked my hardware, including installing another mouse, and all are in good working order. I am ABLE to right click access menu’s in other programmes! I first reported this bug (VWR-3542) on the 29th November 2007 and it has remained unassigned. I am AWARE of OTHERS that have same problem. I am thorougly frustrated at being unable to use - “wear”, “copy”, “rename”, “delete” as it makes dressing, writing notes, cleaning out inventory so tedious and time consuming!
I keep going back to version 1.18.3.5 as all works beautifully BUT now I see in blog that you are going to force us to upgrade on Wednesday, 12th March 2008. I have reported it again in JIRA! Anybody want a bet that they ignore that report too?
PLEASE HELP
March 6th, 2008 at 3:55 PM
* Grid stability and performance - teleports fail quite regularly, especially under heavy load. , and sim performance varies wildly, Low FPS, Lag, serious texture latency, in world maps are very slow loading, Crashes and viewer hangs and freezes. Random log outs, ongoing friends list issues, None of this makes for a very pleasant experience for users. Long promised improvement to physics and scripting would help dramatically to reduce these problems, but there are a lot of other scalability issues as well.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Correction. You only need a web browser. LL should declare SL statical instead of pretending running a walkthrough 3D environment. And this winded light is great for still pictures and corporation adverisement boards, anyway. And Torley would not have to teach the newbs how to move in slow motion.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Re: new release
very poor performance, has-rendering issues, ground disaperes when moving at certain angles. there’s a whole new series of serious memory leaks.
Tons of lag as a resualt, what is very fustrating about all this is LL continues to push viewers that don’t work on older computers, and continues to ignore the comments made by most residents on performance issues.
LL is putting aesthetics and features above performance and stability.
Windlight currently works better then the main viewer.
Every time new viewers are pushed out they come with new memory leaks, performance problems rendering problems and stability issues.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:29 PM
If this somehow keeps me from using my main viewer, which is the Nicholaz BE-V built on the 1.18.5.3 code, then this is an extremely UNwelcome change.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Seriously, LL… do you really think this is the best move? I’m running a machine with 2gb of memory and I have serious memory issues with 1.19… The Nicholaz viewer is awesome and I have not once had a memory error. Not once. I fire up the RC and BLAMMO.
You don’t test thoroughly. It seems every time you make a fix, you break something else.
Do NOT make this mandatory. I guarantee with the track-record with everything 1.19 related, this will be a fiasco.
March 6th, 2008 at 5:01 PM
I think LL seriously needs to reconsider this until the stability and major issues in 1.19 are sorted out - listen to the chat, the people coming to Help Island and asking where they can download the older client versions - people who download and use RC’s, Windlight, Dazzle etc expect bugs and do so knowing they can safely use a previous ’somewhat’ stable release, forcing people to use 1.19 at this point in time is a bad move, not only from a technical standpoint, but from a morale and retention standpoint - people will not be happy, and not log in (or spend money) if their ‘forced’ upgrade makes their SL experience worse.
March 6th, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Wow… Thanks guys, for disabling video for us Win2k users. At least now I can completely uninstall that annoying piece of shite called quicktime… Too bad Squeebee’s MST3K movie theater was one of my last reasons to log in from time to time… Staring at a blank screen sure is NO fun. You write “Only 10% of residents are still running viewers older than 1.18.5.” - any insight how many people are running SL from windows 2000 like me and who are now cut off from watching movies? I care less and less…
March 6th, 2008 at 6:03 PM
RE 49
“People are spending more and more each month in SL, while the money keeps on rolling in do you seriously think anything will get better? The Lindens don’t care how long term users of the system are affected by new clients, this one not working… well it minimizes how many people can get on to complain…”
That’s one of the problems with SL though, they see the money they do make and are content to be a second tier MMORPG. With the base technology they have devoloped they should be outstripping everyone. Free accounts that are not hamstrung, Ability to modify the world to be just about everything to everyone. And where are they? WoW has almost 10 million users paying monthly fees. SL has 6 million and I would guess a very large chunk of those are alts. The problem is that LL should wait for critical mass before they dump the “next big thing” on us. Stick with what you have that works. 1.18 clients are fine. Havoc 1 has been serving you good. Let the client base build on those. Casual players who might eventually become hard core uses are more likely to just drop out and move on if their experience isn’t consistant and reliable. LL seems to think their client base is a moving target and keep trying to upgrade to bring in more people. The client base.. current and targeted is pretty fixed. They want a more social interactive experience and want to play at being their fantasy selves. Not, want the most highpowered graphic interface that requires them to have Crysis level hardware to play.
I’ve already talked to one friend tonight from the 3 I mentioned above whose response to the forced upgrade is “Oh well, I’ll play Eve Online instead.”
MEMO to LL - The Blizzard Model works. The Sony Model (SWO, which you seem to be mirroring) failed.
March 6th, 2008 at 6:23 PM
Prospero Linden Says:
March 5th, 2008 at 7:29 PM PST
“Aya : this rolling restart has nothing to do with needing a new client. Since “message liberation” many months ago, server and client updates are no longer so tightly linked.”
From here-> http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/06/rolling-restart-thursday-march-6th-5pm-10pm-pst/#comment-588187
Does the left hand not know what the right hand is doing at LL? You say you want to give everyone a head-up to the viewer change, but you post 6 posts after this one, essentially burying it at the bottom of the page.
As I said before, this is a bad idea…
March 6th, 2008 at 6:53 PM
This is wonderful news. My understanding from previous blogs concerning the IDV is at this time is that all parcels and estates will require to be flagged as adult and keeping the children from accessing these places.
This has been long over due.
Since the Second Life adult grid is for adults only, to make it perfect, we need this also at the log in to keep them off this grid and back onto the teen grid where they belong.
As mentioned in an earlier blog, estate and parcel owners can manually add people’s names to the parcel access list so that people can still enter without going through the IDV process. This was confirmed to me when a person who belongs to one of these adult content role-play sim’s told me that the owners of some of the various adult role-play Sims plan to do this. The ones mentioned were Midian City, Dark City, Toxian City and The Crack Den plan to do this. This is something that Linden Labs needs to look into.
Yes some will find ways of circumventing the system, but if they do and are caught then they can add identity theft to what ever else they were up to.
This is a great move in protecting us. Thank you again.
March 6th, 2008 at 6:59 PM
None of the official releases are working properly for me right now (unless I would not want to look at anything but only chat because graphics are totaly messed up).
So if the required viewer update won’t let me use the Nicholaz edition any longer (no graphics problems at all with Nicholaz) this may be my last week in SL.
I’m not willing to buy a new computer that I don’t have any problems with apart from SL’s official software….
Not really looking forward to this, but then this might be a good chance to take a break from all this and get away from the continous frustration.
March 6th, 2008 at 8:37 PM
@ 58
“Since the Second Life adult grid is for adults only…”
Right. It is by default.
“The ones mentioned were….”
I talked to an avatar named God and he tmentioned you plan to have IDV on heaves gate. Is this true?
“This is a great move in protecting us.”
You? No one needs to protect YOU. You are an adult, i suggest. Or not?
March 6th, 2008 at 8:53 PM
Wow… Thanks guys, for disabling video for us Win2k users. At least now I can completely uninstall that annoying piece of *bleep* called quicktime… Too bad Squeebee’s MST3K movie theater was one of my last reasons to log in from time to time… Staring at a blank screen sure is NO fun. You write “Only 10% of residents are still running viewers older than 1.18.5.” - any insight how many people are running SL from windows 2000 like me and who are now cut off from watching movies? I care less and less…
March 6th, 2008 at 9:25 PM
oh come ON
Dont make us use a viewer that is more broken than the last.
I try the windlights and RCs frequently. In 1.19.5 i have yet to see a friends list that actually says anything except hippos/waiting, at least with the 1.18x we could check and un check the find me box to force it to work. Now 1.19 breaks the one feature that fixed it.
When i first tried 1.19. 5 i installed fresh, clean cache, and was ruthed over several reboots. I even stripped right down to a basic linden default skin and nothing else, and it STILL said to me, please wait your clothing is downloading, and left me with a ruth.
So, Jeska Linden, im sorry but almost all the main bugs that we suffer from are already in the JIRA (fwiw). How can people make a difference when you ignore or put off main issues like the friends list? Its been broken on and off through 1.18 for soo long. Now its impossible.
March 6th, 2008 at 9:38 PM
@58 IDV have always been added as completely voluntary even for land parcel owners, that’s good as he limited good test sample have 1 in five legitimate user fail the roll-out had “MUCH” higher number how much LL didn’t release but as almost no-one outside the used and about max 80% in the us succeeds. Some kind of age verifications is surely good, but it should be based on a system where the only possible way to get age verified isn’t to get 2-pac drivers licence.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:43 PM
@58 Uh-Oh Who blathers on:
“This is wonderful news. My understanding from previous blogs concerning the IDV is at this time is that all parcels and estates will require to be flagged as adult and keeping the children from accessing these places”
Your understanding is screwed up badly. While children should not access these places, they should not even be on SL. The gatekeeling belongs at the door, not at the sim. LL has NO DESIRE to keep children out of SL because they will still allow unverified accounts to come in the door.
Uh-Oh further mumbles: “Since the Second Life adult grid is for adults only, to make it perfect, we need this also at the log in to keep them off this grid and back onto the teen grid where they belong.”
You get this part right. And if Linden Labs fulfills their responsibility there will be NO NEED for sim owners to sort children out of the mix.
Finally in the middle of a mental fit Uh-Oh writes: “This is a great move in protecting us. Thank you again.”
Perhaps you need protection (a good lockup perhaps) but the adults on SL don’t need protection. If LL fulfills their responsibility and prohibits unverified accounts, then some thank yous are in order. Until then, expecting sim owners to do LL’s job is shirking their responsibility and buys them zero protection from litigation.
This is an adult site and not checking some kind of ID at the door for ALL people leaves LL open for litigation….they can’t pass this responsibility off to their customers even if they’re hoping to. The bottom line is that LL WANTS children in-world. They have fixed it so that they can freely come in. They just are hoping to avoid the liability for letting them in.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:00 AM
@64
This is exactly what I have been saying all along, IDV everyone at login, and then we know that the people we are dealing with are adults. If a person has a problem using the IDV process, then they have something to hide and they do not belong out here. Until this happens the sim and parcel owners must flag all adult content and restrict non verified accounts from entering them.
Should one of these kids be out here illegally and real life law comes knocking at your door, it will be easier to show that this child used a stolen I.D. thus protecting people from liability and placing the wrong on the child or their parents for lying, using stolen identities and being out here to begin with.
This also will hold people participating in illegal activities or those against the TOS responsible for their actions. Once they are removed from Second Life, it will make it harder for them to return, and make criminal prosecution easier for the law enforcement agencies investigating such activities.
This will also cut down on fraud and theft since there will be a name attached to each account that has been verified and hopefully allow the victims of fraud to recover their losses.
As for my “blathering” I will continue to do so both on the blogs and other places until I get my point across. I am sure by now the fact that children are out here being exposed to some rather disturbing content is the topic of discussion around many water coolers in various companies and agencies by now.. No amount of harassment will silence me; it only strengthens my resolve and proves the need for the IDV to be required for all accounts out here.
March 7th, 2008 at 4:42 AM
I have tried every viewer since 1.18.3(5) and none of them are as stable. I simply NEVER crash or have any serious problems with this viewer. While everyone around me is crashing on TP, I’m fine. If you make this up(down)grade mandatory, I will be joining those who crash on every other tp, if I can log in.
Please do more testing before making it mandatory. Pretty please?
March 7th, 2008 at 5:32 AM
I am a former Sun Microsystems software test engineer for Solaris.
I use the Linux Alpha (and now Beta) client, which has not been stable since version 1.18.3. I use Fedora Core Linux.
This deprecation (obsolescence) of previous code means that Second Life will now be unusable for me and my wife, Our beautiful virtual land will become empty because we may not even be able to log in to pay the tier fees, and the 55 dollars a month that we pay in tier fees will be lost to Linden Labs.
I am very upset that LL has refused to fix this HUGE bug that causes a crash to the Linux viewer upon each and every teleport. This means that when I log in, if I can log in, I can’t go anywhere. Not much of a Second Life.
I know that things move forward, and that many bug fixes and exploits have been solved, BUT for the Linux client, which has remained buggy and unstable, crashing repeatedly per session. Those that talk of how wonderful the new 1.19.0.5 viewer is have not used the Linux client. It’s a mess.
Linden Labs has shown the Linux community just how little they care about supporting us. Yet, Linux users are spending REAL money on your services. Lindens, if you were never going to fix this bug, then why not make an exception for those running the Linux clients? That would have at least meant that you spent five minutes thinking about us. I know that you only have a dozen or so Lindens working on Linux (according to the Linden support folks in Aussie), and that nobody cares, but really, could you have fixed this bug before deprecating the *only* Linux client that worked?
What are we supposed to do now? Say goodbye to our many online friends and log off for good? Really? I can’t believe that this is what Lindens want, unhappy customers who used to be loyal paying fans.
I am extremely disappointed.
March 7th, 2008 at 5:58 AM
I’m sorr to hear that you have so many problems, but I can assure you, it’s not the Linux viewer’s fault per se. I use the Linux alpha (now beta) ever since I came to Second Life (2 years ago), and it always worked well. You see the occasional crash, or with some Versions more than that, but I never saw the viewer fail completely.
In my opinion, Linden Lab has undergone a great effort to support the Linux community. I remember when the first alpha came out and the Linux crowd was often locked out of the world until someone “found the time” to compile the latest version. They hired a dedicated Linux developer later and things went uphill from that day on. So I think you can’t say, Linux was not supported eagerly enough.
The Lindens in Australia are probably hired for networking and not viewer development. This is a completely different thing.
In closing, I downloaded the latest RC yesterday and it ran perfectly fine on my Linux system.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:03 AM
@42
“If your computer crashes or SL doesnt run good for you it MUST be cuz your computer is crappy. buy a new computer you cheap people!!!!”
I have a Intel 64 bit Core Duo running at 3GHz
4Gb of memory
Nvidia geForce 7600 with 256mb
Sata2 400gb Hard Disk
High speed DSL connection.
This is a blazingly fast system that regularly reports 45+ Frames Per Second
and reaches 350 KTris drawn.
I almost never lag.
That said, I still encounter lag occasionally, especially on older servers and places where there are a great many scripts running.
I built and installed this system myself, and it’s *rock* solid.
No other application crashes, not even Firefox with it’s known memory leak bug.
Your assertion is therefore invalid and without basis in fact.
You might want to glance at the JIRA and the numerous known bugs for SL before asserting falsehoods. Most SL users that I have met are *very* savvy and have more than met the system requirements. Stop blaming the users, they don’t write the code.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:17 AM
@68 said:
I’m sorr to hear that you have so many problems, but I can assure you, it’s not the Linux viewer’s fault per se.”
It is the fault of management at Lindens Labs for not putting a better effort into bug fixing. especially with the Linux client. Many many others have reported this same bug, including in the comments of this blog post! Read up a bit and see what I’m talking about.
See @50 and @55 comments, for starters. Probably others.
I am not alone in reporting this, and having it be ignored.
I’m a software engineer who specializes in software test.
Trained system and network administration.
Many others have reported bugs on the Linux client and not seen them fixed.
Take a look at the JIRA and realize that your case is the exception, not the rule.
And BTW, the Australian support team were not networking folks, that was not my issue.
Oh, and you have also ignored the fact that the 1.18.3.(5) client works quite well for me, so it’s not all Linux clients, just ones newer than that version.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:24 AM
BTW, has anyone notice that the icon for the program is missing in the 1.19.1.0 Release Candidate 0 viewer for Linux? Oops. So many bugs.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:34 AM
@79 Stefan Blinker: I know there are a lot of people reporting problems, but hte same goes for Windows or Mac. So far, each and every Linux installation of the viewer (even on Intel and small Laptop ATi cards) I did worked, some better, some worse, but none of them failed completely.
I have no idea what goes wrong on your system, I can only advide to look at the log files, compile the source yourself and get some serious debugging done. With your background you should be able to do that
You say, “only” a dozen or so Lindens are working on the Linux viewer … Personally, I think this number is far too high. There are probably only very few core developers for the viewer at all, and even fewer would be dedicated to the Linux port. But of course, only one of the Linux Lindens can tell us with certainty.
I don’t deny the fact that the viewer has bugs and rough edges, but not a lot of them I would attest to “Linux only”. I see most of the issues on Linux and Windows systems.
Oh, BTW, your experience in software testing and development does not impress me at all.
I can compete on that without any problem.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:37 AM
BTW, the icon shows up for me.
March 7th, 2008 at 7:49 AM
@72 Zi Ree said: “I know there are a lot of people reporting problems”
I’m guessing that you think it’s of no consequence that there are critical show stopping bugs in SL code, because you dismiss this bug as trivial. Bugs that crash the viewer repeatedly are not trivial, in my professional opinion. They are critical bugs that have slipped by release after release, and are well documented.
When users are the secondary test group, there must be a way of getting critical bugs fixed when they are found, and this process has not worked well for this particular bug, and believe me, it’s a mystery as to why. I cannot speak to the Windows or Mac viewers as I have not used them, but other users have reported this bug, so I know that it’s real. I am tempted to run Vista just to have another version, but this is an project that I don’t really have time for.
The rule in software testing is when you can reproduce a bug repeatedly, then it’s real. I can and have, as demonstrated by bug reports to that effect. You seem to be asserting that every user that has filed a bug report regarding crashing on teleport should “look at the log files”, as if to say that there is something wrong with those user’s systems. Surely you can’t just mean my system? That would sound like a petty personal attack, since there is nothing wrong with my system, and I don’t think that you meant that, did you?
I may compile the Linux source myself, as I am quite capable as you point out, but as you probably are already aware, it lacks core graphics libs that are proprietary, and therefore anything that I compile would be degraded in performance, non-standard, and therefore a last resort. It would also not be supported. If I were to lose lindens or have other issues, there would be no recourse. Not a road I wish to travel at this point, since I am not being paid to provide my services to LL, and there is already a bug reporting tool available. Also, any bug that I find and fix cannot be put back to the source code AFAIK, as I am not on the payroll. It would only help me, and that’s not what I’m about. I would prefer that everyone get an official fix from LL, wouldn’t you? Surely we agree on that point, yes?
Also, not being intimate with the SL source code, I might accidentally introduce a new bug. Surely no one wants that.
Zi Ree said: “You say, “only” a dozen or so Lindens are working on the Linux viewer ”
I never said this. This came from the Australian support team. I am quoting the folks at Linden Labs, not myself. You seem to want to make this very personal, and I’m not sure why.
Zi Ree said: “I don’t deny the fact that the viewer has bugs and rough edges, but not a lot of them I would attest to “Linux only”. I see most of the issues on Linux and Windows systems.”
I never said that these bugs were “Linux only” either. This is a misrepresentation of my words. Is there some reason that you are misquoting me?
When I make a desktop shortcut, I have to give a location for the file secondlife.ico, which is not present in the most recent release 1.19.1.0 Release Candidate 0.
Why are you so adamant that my assertion is false? This is not the first release to have this file missing. It’s not a big deal for me, I just copy it from another release, but it is telling in terms of how much time is spent testing.
I’m not sure why this information is so upsetting, but believe me, it’s not personal.
March 7th, 2008 at 8:08 AM
@74 Stefan Blinker: It’s in no way personal. I may have misunderstood one or two things in your posts, consider it the language barrier. If I speak against something in your posts, it’s simply about the facts, not about you as a person.
You’re always talking about “this huge bug”, and I fail to see it. I’m getting logged out on teleports occasionally, but that’s not the viewers fault, it looks more like a connectivity problem to me. Do you have a Jira ID of the bug? The bug might be real for you and several other people, I don’t deny that. But I didn’t see anything like you described on my systems. Therefore I advise to have a loko at the logs and maybe compile the source yourself to get at the core problem.
The source code does not lack any libraries. If you are referring to libkdu, you can get it as a package from the source code download page. The sound system, FMOD, is also available for download.
About the Linux Lindens … the way youo put it in the post I was referring to first, it certainly looked like you were adopting the information of the Australian support team. My bad if I misinterpreted what you wrote.
About “Linux only”: Your posts have been very much Linux centric from the start, and you claimed, that Linden Lab is not devoting enough time and resourced to the Linux port of the viewer. So I assumed you were talking about bugs that predominantly happen on Linux systems and have been ignored. Please tell me if I got this sentence wrong:
“I am very upset that LL has refused to fix this HUGE bug that causes a crash to the Linux viewer upon each and every teleport.”
You might argue that you didn’t say “only the Linux viewer” but I think it was at least ambiguous
About the icon: I see what you mean now. I never looked for an .ico file, because I don’t use desktop shortcut. I was referring to the program icon appearing in the task bar and window decoration upon running Second Life. This probably was a misunderstanding. As you said yourself, you can copy it from an older release, so it’s not really a bug but a packaging mistake. Did you already file a Jira for it?
Anyway … Pleaase don’t take my comments personally, because I don’t know you and have no reason to attack you in any way. I’m simply stating the facts as I see them.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:40 AM
Zi Ree said: “The source code does not lack any libraries.”
Zi, read carefully. I never said that it did.
There are proprietary libs that are not open source that are used in SL code.
They are the default. There are open source graphics libs available, but they’re slow compared to the default, and also non-standard.
The point is that anything that I build, however wonderful, would still only be available to me, and that’s not what I want. If I’m going to go to the trouble to fix something, I want everyone to have it.
Also, maybe there is a language barrier. I don’t believe that my comments are ambiguous. I have said that my comments pertain to the Linux viewer code because that’s what I use. I noted that others have reported similar problems on other viewers. How is that ambiguous?
Also, your experience is a sample of one. My experience is backed up by bug reports. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. It’s reproducible, and therefore real, and it doesn’t happen on 1.18.3.5 at all.
Something in the code base changed to make TPs decidedly less stable, and others are seeing it. Why is that a problem for you? All I’m asking for is that if LL will not fix it, then they should at least allow a stable viewer to be available. Otherwise many others like me will not be able to use SL. Surely you don’t want the SL user base to be reduced because of this.
March 7th, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Now I’m confused.
You said: “I may compile the Linux source myself, as I am quite capable as you point out, but as you probably are already aware, it lacks core graphics libs that are proprietary, and therefore anything that I compile would be degraded in performance, non-standard, and therefore a last resort.”
So you didn’t say the source code would lack libraries? Please clarify.
I suggested building the viewer to be able to test it, find the core of the crash. If it doesn’t crash in your own build (using the proprietary graphics librariess of course), you have at least something to tell Lindens. And your fixes can go back into the source tree. I have provided a number of patches to the viewer already, so some of the code that’s running in the viewer is mine
Would you be so kind to provide me the Jira number, so I can have a look how this bug can be reproduced?
March 7th, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Hi there! Tried Dazzle right now… its ok, but i would prefer you made different things regarding screen disposition and not just colors, even if this is nice to change.
A request, why Communications window cant be smaller? Im used to let it with just 4 lines to have more view space, it bothers to not be able to make it smaller…
Also, why not put title, group or IM session name and profile or group info all on the top line? That would save a lot of view space for us.
>Paula
March 7th, 2008 at 11:43 AM
ONLY ONE COMMENT!
Whatever you doing Lindens, please, please, please this…
Make the contact list load.
Make the contact list load.
Make the contact list load.
MAKE THE CONTACT LIST LOAD!
Since new viewer came, contact list usually does NOT load, acting like same bug as in Windlight, and when does load, can be only after hours! This is very strange thing and can’t imagine is difficult for fixing because did not have this problem with before version. Please fix!