[Updated 12.07] Age Verification Update
Thursday, December 6th, 2007 at 9:17 PM by: Robin LindenThanks to all of you who in the first day of the Age Verification beta have tried to use the service. Unfortunately, we are seeing a high failure rate for Internationally based customers using the age verification system. The failure rate is much higher than we saw in previous testing, and clearly is unacceptable.
We are working with Aristotle/Integrity to identify the causes of these failures. By reviewing your feedback, and running some system diagnostics, we expect to identify some early trends in the next 24 hours. We will report back to you what we’ve learned and how to correct them.
In the meantime, if you’ve tried unsuccessfully to age verify, [Update 2007.12.07: we have replaced the email address with a survey link that appears after an unsuccessful attempt].
Taking this survey will help us make system-wide changes that will benefit the rest of the community. If you would like us to solve your individual problem, please submit a support ticket — there’s a ticket type available to everyone, including guests and basics, called “manual age verification”.
Thanks again for working with us during this beta period, and we appreciate your patience.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:28 PM
Excellent, this is a better response than I would have expected; instead of many people opening JIRA tickets we get some more special treatment for this feature!
Age Verification working is a very important thing - I made three attempts with three different ID numbers and all of them failed, probably due to my very exotic name having accents :S Hope this should be fixed soon though!
December 6th, 2007 at 9:28 PM
TY for the update, Robin!
I’ve seen that unverifieds can move onto land flagged as verified-only. Can you tell us when it will start getting enforced or if you can’t say yet, how much notice we’ll get before you flip the switch?
December 6th, 2007 at 9:29 PM
what about the rest of us that did get verified do we have to give out that rl info again at a later date because I do not think its fair once we get verified , I thought our rl info to linden LL was good enough now this … its wrong , figures I shouldnt have done that beta now I bet in the coming days my rl mail box and god knows is gonna be filled with junk mail
December 6th, 2007 at 9:32 PM
Just a quick question, I have been gone for over three months where do you go to register for the age verification or will this be noted at a later date ?
December 6th, 2007 at 9:33 PM
The Following has NOT been addressed:
What is the garuntee that this third party will
respect the privacy laws and NOT store he info unless
requested?
Is LL Monitoring this third party? Why should we
entrust our privet info to a third party we know
nothing about?
What about security? how securer is this third party?
Who do we hold accountable if a security breach occurs
at the third party?
What about third party credentials?
I believe we have the Legal right to view those too.
What garuntees do we have against Identity theft?
I refuse to submit any of my privet info to The third
party until you guys address ALL my concerns and
questions regarding this issue.
I do NOT feel safe nor secure releasing my privet info
to a third party I know nothing about.
How much do free accounts have to pay? what about
those of us unable to get a credit card for what ever
reasons or can’t access pay-pal?
Also it’s illegal in some countries for an online virtual world to
require a users social security number for any reason.
Linden Labs WILL be held accountable for any problems that occurs as a result of ID theft, grid security breaches resulting in ID theft, Security Exploits resulting in ID theft,
Any problems that occurs with this third party in regards to out Privet info.
Until LL has publicly addressed these issues I REFUSE to submit any privet info or take part in LL’s Age verification project. I simply do not feel my Privet info is safe nor has LL made any acceptable garuntees that it is truly safe.
Also it’s illegal in some countries for an online virtual world to
require a users social security number for any reason.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:34 PM
Until the concerns people have raised are clearly addressed, in particular the worries about Aristotle/Integrity will “accidently“ sell our info, I won`t event consider going near this.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:52 PM
Yes, and we need to know, is our Avatar Name being linked to our Real Life Information, by sending both to Aristotle/Integrity? Is that such a hard question to answer? Really…
December 6th, 2007 at 9:53 PM
/7, depends on what the answer is. Lindens, you are not filling us with confidence by staying silent on these issues.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:59 PM
“Unfortunately, we are seeing a high failure rate for Internationally based customers using the age verification system.”
I am *totally*, *utterly*, *completely* UNsurprised. I truly wish I could say this without sounding negative, but many of my SL friends who are not US residents could have told LL this a year ago. In fact, they did, or at least tried to. Maybe they just got tired of trying.
I hope LL will finally realize that the whole idea of age verification is simply wrongheaded to begin with, and that there are much friendlier and more effective alternatives. If I may quote from my own notifier: “Linden Labs’ current and proposed verification policies are known, by abundant evidence, to discriminate against residents on the basis of nationality, professional status, need to protect their privacy, and ability to provide sensitive personal information, in some cases to the extent that complying with Linden Labs verification request would be illegal. At the same time, there is essentially *no* evidence that the verification process espoused by Linden Labs provides effective screening against the supposed issue of concern (viz., that minors might be exposed to harmful content). Hence, the owner of this land declines to make use of Linden Labs inadequate and discriminatory Flagging option, and instead prefers to use this Notification to achieve the same goal in a more friendly, ethical, and equitable fashion.” Incidentally, anyone wishing a copy of my notifier may contact me and receive a free full-perm version (I trust this will not be mistaken as spam, as I am offering this as a public service to my fellow residents).
December 6th, 2007 at 10:01 PM
>”Unfortunately, we are seeing a high failure rate for Internationally based customers using the age verification system. The failure rate is much higher than we saw in previous testing, and clearly is unacceptable.
We are working with Aristotle/Integrity to identify the causes of these failures.”
The reason for the failure is simple. In many countries it is actually illegal to attempt to obtain the very information Integrity/Aristotle claims to already have.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:08 PM
Ditto! I agree with those who are wary of submitting info to a third party who has not been thoroughly checked out. So far, LL has been incompetent in addressing our concerns, fixing our problems or even properly investigating abuse of their own TOS. Why should any of us trust them to carry this out properly?
As a U.S. citizen, your asking for an SSN violates our federal law, a law which states on the SS card itself “this shall not be used in any way to identify or for identification purposes, by any other than the US government”. The fine for misuse was steep and can include jail time for the offenders.
Are you guys at LL US government? I think not. Attempting to force this could get you tied up in a seriously ugly class action suit. The US government does not smile on misuse of their goodies.
As it is, I have already contacted you about my private info being leaked.
Your response? A stupid form letter. Your efforts? Zilch.
Its like this, guys…
One of your “residents” managed to get into my personal info. You have done nothing, which includes dealing with them. You were sent the data and chat logs, the evidence you needed. A month has passed and they continue to walk freely through SL with their numerous alts and continue to spread my data.
No. No, I don’t think you will be getting any of my info nor my family’s.
As it is, I am trying to run two businesses in SL and this security breach you at LL have failed to address only further confirms my reasons for distrust. When will this BS muck up my businesses? When will you cost me even more RL grief, money and time?
You’ve already cost many of us emotional and financial loss, if you think we will allow you to exploit our meager privacies, then you are nuts!
December 6th, 2007 at 10:10 PM
“Your World, Your Imagination” you say.
So if I want NO age verification in my world and yet visit all places, you will listen right?
Just do what any other site on the web does, “By joining and becoming a member you state you’re over legal age in your country”. It is not worth forcing Residents to provide info that they wish not to or even are illegal to give out, just so they can visit places they been visiting all the time, or even go to their own home or business.
Besides I could easily find much worse content than what is already existing in SL without even being asked if I’m over 18.
If you had thought of working more closely with Residents on this mater. A much better idea would likely come to light.
Just get ride of this age verification, listen to Us and find an alternative that WE WHO ARE GOING TO USE IT AGREE ON, I DEMAND that as a resident of MY WORLD.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:10 PM
Hi Veronica-I for one would appreciate a copy of it for my own lands. Your notifier sounds much more agreeable and is legal.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:12 PM
Robin, the easiest way to get your customers off-side is to continue to address only the issues you want to respond to. You, and other Lindens, continue to answer only those questions that suit, without dealing with the very real concerns so many of us have - in particular, those of us overseas with more stringent privacy legislation that the United States. There is no way Aristotle already has access to much of this information, and will not, unless we give it to them. To say that Linden Labs will not retain the information is to skirt the issue - you have never once, to the best of my knowledge, sworn that Aristotle will not.
Pussy-footing around the serious questions posed in these blogs and in the forums is insulting to your customer base, bearing in mind that many of us deal with these issues daily in our own working lives and are not stupid. I truly believe you could even acknowledge that this is a data-gathering exercise rather than an age verification one (which it clearly is not) and hear a collective sigh of relief from residents, simply because you were telling the truth.
If you place any value on customer relations, please, please reconsider the way you approach such a sensitive issue.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:23 PM
Verified. Stop being paranoid. GET VERiFIED! Same whiners every post……
December 6th, 2007 at 10:26 PM
It amazes me how quickly people have forgotten that the whole thing is, and will remain, VOLUNTARY.
Incidentally, the same goes for participating in Second Life to begin with.
*big sigh*
December 6th, 2007 at 10:26 PM
BTW, instead of whining on this blog, use the correct channels for your problems/issues and they may get looked at. Those channels are there for a REASON.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:37 PM
I am very happy to see the positive on going effort on having this feature working properly. Thank you very much linden lab keep up the great work!
December 6th, 2007 at 10:45 PM
@16
Your right, the beta phase is “voluntary”. After the beta testing it will become MANDATORY! You should really read anything about age verification.
I’m happy to see, that LL listen, but there is no word because why we have to to break the laws for LL. All options for germans for the verification is simple illegal, if the company is NOT located in germany / EU.
To be legal we have to break laws, thats a really funny thing.
And again:
I understand why LL wants the age verification, but this is the wrong way. Don’t force your residents to break laws for your safeness.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:46 PM
>”Unfortunately, we are seeing a high failure rate for Internationally based customers using the age verification system. The failure rate is much higher than we saw in previous testing, and clearly is unacceptable.”
Was there really anyone naive enough to try? Folks, really! How can you even try to give away your privacy?
Given the prices of LL for land and the tier fees, land owners often look for a way to balance their expenses from in world revenues. If none of us participates in this … thing… how will the land owners eventually flag their parcels, eh? Or will they simply sell their lands to cut down their expenses? We residents do have the right to decide if we want to go along or not…
Don’t verify and don’t spend money where you cannot go to…lol…it is that simple.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:49 PM
The disclaimer/TOS for even creating an avatar removes LL from liability already for behaviour ect of the residents in sl. If not only for the reason that it says that you agree everything you use is valid. Which includes being an adult using the adult grid. Even warns you that if you are under age you should be going to the teen server…
‘now tell me how this Age verification is not a redundant system that is discriminatory and will cause nothing but heartache for LL?
December 6th, 2007 at 10:49 PM
Will someone please explain JUST how Second Life thinks that it’s 3′rd party company it will be using to bypass the laws of the US and several other countries?
IT is ILLEGAL for any NON government organization to take such infortmation. And it says ON THE CARD that its not to be used by any non-government agency for that purpose. SSN’s are used for identification purposes all the time….by the government.
This third party organized is NOT an Governmant company, how do you expect to not get canned? Well…if SL won’t get canned, the 3rd part company offering ILLEGAL services is most certainly going to be.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:52 PM
dear Lindens, dear Robin,
nice try to get our private datas. maybe to sell them to some insurance-companies or why you want our social-insurance-no.?
sorry, i live in germany (europe) and it’s not legal to give you or a third-party-seller this no.
so i request, people, please don’t flag and don’t verify.
@ 15: very cool. *whine* ;P
December 6th, 2007 at 10:54 PM
Infact, you know I think I’m going to go ahead and see what I can do about this. If there’s someone I can talk to through the US government I’m certainly going to let them know about this if they don’t already.
This is ILLEGAL…and I’m NOT going to be giving out my information ILLEGALLY to some THIRD PARTY COMPANY that BREAKS THE LAWS just so they can SELL off all the information to some other people.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:01 PM
Wow I never thought that the community could respond and make their opinions known by breaking the thing…hmm…more power to the people!
December 6th, 2007 at 11:09 PM
http://www.rbs2.com/privacy.htm
http://www.cdt.org/privacy/eudirective/EU_Directive_.html
http://www.datatilsynet.no/templates/Page____1784.aspx
You may want to look at this.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:11 PM
I do not understand the needf or verification. As far as i’m concerned the parents are responsible for the actions that their children are taking online, not the rest of the community.
I personally as many others have said, will not be verifying. I have a paypal account, which you cannot get without being 18, having either a valid cc, or bank account. I agreed to the TOS when i signed up requiring me to be over 18 to even sign up for the main grid in the first place. As someone else pointed out, The TOS on it’s own aboslves SL of any responsiblity for the minor’s that access the adult grid through lying, as they are going to find ways to bypass the age verification anyway.
Personally i say Give us the information and the guarntees we want instead of playing mary go round with it, and MAYBE you’d get a better response from everyone. And if you need more information on what it is we want to know then look at post #5 by Rascal Ratelle
thank you
December 6th, 2007 at 11:12 PM
@25
“If there’s someone I can talk to through the US government I’m certainly going to let them know about this if they don’t already.”
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!
Oh dear….lmfao…..
Please do not take offense to that. The problem with your statement is that our gov’t has been collecting this info on us for YEARS. They don’t care one iota about our privacy rights. Fourth Amendment no longer applies here and major corporations are more than happy to help.
Word of advice for my friends in other countries, DO NOT submit your information.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:12 PM
its beta meaning bugs meaning our information that we put in it is at risk , I would like an honest answer , but doubt I will get one , you taking survey of age , surmanes, regions , race , we as americans have our rights if I find mine have been jeopardized , I hope the local aurthorories can help …
December 6th, 2007 at 11:13 PM
I think trusting a company that is known for selling information is a mistake. Not that i worry really, our sims are not full of explicit material.
And no, someone doing an explicit act in a sim that is not made for it does not count and are asked to stop.
Still, I wish LL would do the verification thing themselves, as I am not going to give my SSN to anyone.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:16 PM
Tried to verify and failed. I am in the UK, tried to use both methods available to UK residents and both failed. Has anyone in the UK successfully verified?
December 6th, 2007 at 11:16 PM
omg - so many negative words - I am sure lot’s of your so called private information is scattered around the world already, especially whe you fly or otherwise cross country borders.
Sure it is not what I had to provide as I created my account a year ago. Having a dutch passport that needs to be renewed every 5 years, changes the numbers of it too. So I rather shrug on this - when I need to enter verification only area’s I can verify. I rather verify for sl, then getting spammed with real life personalised marketing stuff from companies I dont know.
But for now I rather waiit to see what happens with the beta on it before verifying. BTW, Linden is not asking for full SSN, it asks for the last 4 digits only.
Cheers.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Kris, I’ll still do what I can.
Fact of the matter is, I’m over 18…and I shouldn’t have to provide MY PERSONAL information to be able to access all parts of SL
AND I AM NOT GOING TO GIVE LL THAT KIND OF INFORMATION! NO one ELSE should either! Do not give your personal information to them.
It’s absolutely rediculous. Why can’t they just use paypal? YOu need to be an adult to have paypal…and it’s more trustworthy then some UNKNOWN 3rd company.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:23 PM
re: not collecting any data…
are you saying the data in the web form is not being retained in web logs?
December 6th, 2007 at 11:26 PM
With this new system of verification so bad, aristole integry will have in their hands a linden and labs now aritole make determination who plays second life or not, in very bad idea put customers in the hands of a third company , when age verication finish the beta time and enter to the real grid the the real boss are ARISTOLE INTEGRY, not linden labs
LINDEN LABS if you want make age verification use other forms!! DONT PUT your lovely second life in a STRANGE HANDS!!!
December 6th, 2007 at 11:32 PM
What if I come across very mature content on land that does not ban unverified adults?
As has occurred in other cases, we expect our Residents to report such activity. As has always been the case, Residents are morally, socially and legally responsible for their actions and content in Second Life. Clearly, any illegal activity or content will be investigated and appropriate action will be taken. We expect the community to continue to be effective and responsible in ensuring that Residents are sufficiently protected from potentially inappropriate and/or offensive content that is adult in nature.
= your adult content marure SIM wil be closed by LL
December 6th, 2007 at 11:32 PM
Gday bloggers and freinds i havent seen in a long time.
Notice the ‘.. long time part’ - because currently i am BANNED for being underage, someone or something triggered an alarm at LL and they closed my account down.
And rightly so, Its a safety trip - dont get pissed off when the fuse blows as its trying to save you (in the case of LL - save minors from us), but when i provided what would be enough information to open a bank account in the UK to prove my age to SL they couldnt verify it, because its not American/Canadian. Again this is rightly so - if you dont understand the documents you cant pass judgement if its real or fake.
I WANT Age Verification to be installed across the grid, and it to be done the right way, then people like me who got a false negative can submit our data to someone in a safe and secure way, and reopen our accounts.
Ive even been in the odd position where ive even lost a job opertunity from not being able to enter SL, and currently been given another one that would require me to be able to enter SL.
Until this is done, im left to seeing what my brother is doing in sl over his shoulder - Windlight looks brilliant, Voice sounds a bit meh but useful and sculpties look like a godsend, i just cant wait to rejoin and get back to content creating.
Kevin L. aka
Kornation Bommerang
Aged 24 in RL
Would be 4 (i think) in Sl in January
December 6th, 2007 at 11:33 PM
Woohoo for identity theft and my personal information being sold to the lowest bidder! I didn’t want good credit or anonymity online, anyway!
December 6th, 2007 at 11:34 PM
Especially Residents, that earns Money in SL and didnt pay Vat for it now, should not give out more private Informations.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:36 PM
Aww, come on you guys ‘n dolls give ‘m a break! They aint so stupid at LL to really bust the game up by making everybody verify their age for real. And by doing so force everyone in Europe to break Internet information laws and stuff.
They know they have no right to subvert law abiding citizens that way. The way it sounds around here is as though your making them out to be a bunch of Juristic illiterates or something like that.
I dont know whats gotten in to you all now.
As if they would let all that information get stored up by another company all together nothing to do with SL and just watch them do as they like with the data and go spreading it around with other nosey parkers as if it was freebie stuff for crooks to make a fortune out of.
I mean. to hear you all whining about it you all tend to give the impresion that LL would be a bunch of amateurs or something.
No they wouldnt do nuthin like that. No…. certainly not..
And as for the people who have attempted to verify their age and have not succeded. My heart goes out to them, I think you all deserve age verification on the spot for trying so hard to be honest upstanding residents, (Are you listening LL?)
As for age verification in general LL. I suggest you begin to send letters with postage stamps on them to your faithfull fun loving clients so they can confirm whatever you think they have to, one way or the other. Thankyou.
Ps. I will probably get banned for life with this comment but I feel it has to be said this way.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:49 PM
Message from one X sim, privacy dont allow me call it by truly name
“SL is moving to age verification that requires personal information. [X sim] has adopted an alternate system that simply requires your honor and your birthdate, no RL info other than that. Do it once here and you are free of it ever again at any agelock secure sim.
While doing it here, look around our new spectacular market and then get ready to be a … true person in the … sim and the awesome …. …”
WHAT I will need everytime I go to adult sim spread out my age not to LL’s only but to alternatives systems?
I would like to curse but I know that won’t help
December 7th, 2007 at 12:02 AM
sorry one sec.
‘Fact of the matter is, I’m over 18…and I shouldn’t have to provide MY PERSONAL information to be able to access all parts of SL’
So when you was 19 trying to buy a rated M game at a store, you dont show your ID? SL cant see if your 12 or 100, they cannot physically see you so they have to asume that everyone is one or the other, and its safer for them to see you as 17 and 11 months old, just a flash of the ID and be off.
LL is not just saving their own backside, according to the TOS ALL the stuff in SL is our IP, therefor the customer of LL, the content creater - are as liable in any case as LL - and someones rated M with pictures of prim dongs and pixelated nipples land is liable.
We dont want Strokers, etc etc etc all asking for ID before anyone enters theirs islands, so this blanket case over ALL of sl is useful for the content creater and ultimatley Joe Bloggs.
The main thing that i think all of us are scared about is our info getting in the wild - LL HAS been leeked before - we know that - so why are we not trusting them in deciding to use a company with a case record of keeping our data safe?
They even went beta to test out the system to iron out the creases before going live - great! They admit it has a problem, they’ll fix it and come back with safer, more secure and better results, that is what Beta is for.
Truthfully id prefer to give my info to a secure company than LL and its worldwide net of work from home Lindens.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:03 AM
I still wonder, how Integrity (or any other company) will manage to certify the data of European users as in the most EU-countries there is a VERY STRICT data protection law.
for example: I live in Austria and if Integrity or any other non Austrian company wants to gain acces to a specific person’s data … they first have to get a permission of the AUSTRIAN DATA PROTECTION COMISSION which is part of the Austrian Gouvernment.
Integrity will have to contact the data protection commission and ask for permission and they will have to give a reason why they want to acces the data of Austrians… And I think *age verification for SL* surley will NOT be enough to get a permission.
I can’t tell whether or not it works for Austrians at the moment, and most probably I will never know for I will NOT give highly sensible information as
my full name
my date of birth
my passport or driver licence number
my full adress
to anybody or any company on the internet.
But I really want to know why to they need all those infos at all? full name and full adress for an age verification? why date of birth and passport/driver licence nr are not enough? not even our passports or DL show any home adress info…
December 7th, 2007 at 12:13 AM
This does work, I was one of the first to verify in the Estate Owners’ trial (Concierge residents were included shortly afterwards). I chose a mainland parcel with nothing on it, set it and nothing happened to my verified avatar. I then got an alt to enter and got red NO ENTRY lines and a small dialogue very similar to the No Payment Info one. Maybe you need to be verified to set the parcel to verified only.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:18 AM
As a US citizen, verification was fairly easy and painless. My concern is in the near furture I will have to cut off access to my land for everyone who hasn’t/can’t jump this hurdle.
Am I liable for requiring that some people break their countries law but providing confidential information, to see cartoon porn on a grid where everyone is supposed to be 18 in the first place? Will the ARs start being filed against me if I let people view this cartoon porn without being verified?
December 7th, 2007 at 12:27 AM
“I mean. to hear you all whining about it you all tend to give the impresion that LL would be a bunch of amateurs or something.”
Lmfao, are you sure? My toaster is more reliable, AND it makes toast. Nom nom.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:28 AM
It’s very simple. You’re keeping children out of an adult game. This adult game doesn’t require “Parental Guidance” because you’re supposed to be an ADULT to be in the grid. Therefore.. DO AWAY with PG and Mature rankings of sims.. make them ALL mature, lock out ANYONE who can’t prove that they’re adults.. lets stop requiring PG only content in profiles, and lets be ADULTS in SL.
If you’re worried about other countries legality of supplying identifying information.. don’t. THat’s LL’s problem. They can either aquire info to allow people in, or they can simply block access from these countries. The REAL legal issue with this AMERICAN company is allowing children to be exposed to pornography and pedophiles who like sexual ageplay. THAT is enforcable by the US Government.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:28 AM
Why, why, why do you persist in burying your heads in the sand, dear LL.
By now even the most insular of you must have realised that you are inciting many non-US citizens to break the law of their lands.
Ditch these plans now and regain the goodwill of your estranged customers.
I for one will join the boycott on Dec 11 and hope many others will join me.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:34 AM
As I have said twice in IMs to different Lindens, unless the data requested from residents has changed, the information that you have requested for Age Verification is either classifeied by UK and probably other EU countries as well, as wither not suitable for ID verification or we are specifically prohibted from giving it to LL or Aristotle. And from the sounds of it, it is illegal for US citizens to do it too. Find another way!
December 7th, 2007 at 12:35 AM
Readin from the blog: http://www.gridgrind.com/?p=228
I understand that flagging is NOT required.
Did Allana understand this right? (since every one inteprets the lindens words in a different way)
—-
Allana Dion: “My question is not about the beta test period of the identity verification plan, but refers to after the beta test is over and it is used across the grid ………
There IS adult activity occuring in various private areas of this club. However I have chosen NOT to flag the land “adult” because I use my own warning system. I have chosen NOT to block people who choose not to verify through Integrity and I only block people who refuse to acknowledge the warning system I have in place.
For the record, there is no illegal activity or content on the land, only occasionally legal consensual adult activity.
However, if someone decided to report me for not blocking unverified visitors, what would be the consequence?
Is blocking unverified visitors mandatory or is it optional? If it is mandatory, what is the planned form of punishment? If it is not mandatory, does LL plan at any time to make that clear to the public?
(At the moment most people are under the impression that it is required, while I personally interpret LL’s blog as saying it is only recommended)”
This was Michael’s answer:
Michael Linden: “None, nothing … it’s not required.”
Zara Linden: “right, IDV is strictly voluntary”
Michael Linden: “Second sentence: “voluntarily”
Michael Linden: “Third heading: “Enforcing age verification on estates and parcels is voluntary.”
—-
I asked a few lindens and they all referred me to the help files, but the help files give only short answers, on most of our issues we still don’t have answers. We would like to have CLEAR answers from an OFICCIAL channel so we cant get in trouble later for having intepretated things in a different way.
Will there REALLY be no consequenses if we don’t flag sexually orientated land? So no abuse reports which will force us to flag later, no blocking or deleting of acounts, no trouble at all from the lindens?
Will flagging REMAIN voluntarily, or will it become involuntarily in the future?
@5 has very good questions, I think they really need an explanation too.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:37 AM
No, a non-verified can set it, although it does not work for them. In Release Candidate Viewer there is a large dialogue saying “You need to be age-verified in order to enter this parcel. Would you like to visit the Second Life website to verify your age?” In the Official and Windlight Viewers, a small dialogue says “NotAgeVerified is missing from alerts.xml” but you still cannot enter.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:45 AM
Re: #53
I received this from PonygirlSarah Clapper (of Sarah’s Island)
“It has been determined that the following actions will take place here, and hopefully across SL on Dec 11 to protest the verification process:
1) no one buys or sells L$ (rent is still due, if your renting a place and tier fees are due)
2) NO ONE VERIFIES THEMSELVES!
3) NO SIM OWNERS FLAG their land unless forced by LL.
PASS THIS ON TO ALL GROUPS! the more involved, the harder the hit to LL.”
I have no further details.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:47 AM
here is what LL did NOT say: Integrity extends Aristotle’s comprehensive COSMOS™ database of government-issued ID’s, among other data sources, to bring instantaneous age and identity verification to life.
what does this mean? Integrity is SAVING to there data base ALL our submitted privet info after being viewed by SL’s Lindens.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:54 AM
With any luck (and publicity) at all, this little scheme could put Aristotle and companies like them out of business, which is exactly where they belong. Spread the word.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:56 AM
perhaps if they havent asked me and i did not give consent for a backroundcheck… that violates my rights…wheather i can spell or not dam it!
December 7th, 2007 at 12:58 AM
Latest findings I have been told is that the system will not work above 100 meters which means that skyboxes are outside the scope.
It was also stated yesterday by Michael Linden that this is not required or mandatory!!!! Other systems can be used. See gridgrind.com
The data is stored by aristotle for 2 years in their “valt”.
If LL goes out of business or is sold they no longer accept responsibility for looking after your personal data. (See TOS)
So many questions. Never any answers other than technical issues that are blocking their system and saving some people from handing over their ID, that is if Aristotle is not already keeping every entry even if it failed.
Robin Linden and LindenLab let down the residents in a big way. Promising answers and discussion 2 months ago and NOTHING. Forcing this down our throats even with all of our issues.
I will not give my personal ID and numbers to any system that has no oversight, not one assurance of protection. That is madness. Might as well give them my wallet and passport.
Google Identity Theft or Personal Data Loss. Look at the news how the British government has had to admit how it lost loads of data. You reallllly do not want to hand over to someone who creates Voter Profiles your identity so that they can develop a better profile of you. What happens if Aristotle gets hacked? How will they protect us.
LindenLab has little to no idea of where data is stored. How it can be accessed. The answers change every time. “We don’t keep any data.” “They keep data in valt for 2 years.” “We have no idea where it is stored.” Residents want straight answers to our questions not the questions that LindenLab thinks we want.
We want kids to be safe but not at the cost of our identities and possibly our finances. I for one will not verify with real information. I will not access any store or place that requires me to do so.
I use agelock.net and that covers all my needs, free and safely. It can work as high as you build. It will not force your customers to choose between giving of personal information that is dangerous and possibly illegal and buying your product or visiting your club or space.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:01 AM
@Andrea Faulkner:
PG vs M parcels/sims are so users who WANT to avoid M-rated material know where to avoid. It has nothing to do with the adult verification as no-one can be locked out of an M sim, they can only CHOOSE to avoid it.. Which is how it should be.
@others:
I am not sure Atistotle will get in trouble for abusing US laws (SS) when they are - according to themselves - a major supplier of mined data to US politicians on all sides.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:02 AM
oh and I forgot to say: if after the beta period there will be charged a fee for IDV that will be the next hurdle for many people.
I tried to upgrade my account to premium, but it’s impossible because:
I haven’t got a credit card so I made a paypal account, but I can’t use the paypal account because LL only accepts verfied paypal accs and if you are an Austrian resident the only way to verfy yor paypal account is to enter your creditcard number in your paypal account *rofl*
ok, thats not LL’s fault but PayPal’s - but SL is the only game I know that does’nt provide other payment ways. I’ve had premiums in various other online games, all without needing a creditcard or paypal.
@51 oh yes, let only AMERICANS play and block out the rest of the world as the world ends at the US borders
)
December 7th, 2007 at 1:15 AM
wow @62 im not starting anything but your wallet and card number and passport and…. need i go on… are fairly available to those who try. but i would be parinoid too
December 7th, 2007 at 1:22 AM
Epic Fail.
LL you’ve just turned away a huge amount of users,
I can gurantee that once a suitable competing mmog rises
you’ll see those users run.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:32 AM
@67, well said. Probably run by an outfit that doesn’t have stupid/lazy attorneys. Good attorneys are out there.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:45 AM
Re #51
[If you’re worried about other countries legality of supplying identifying information.. don’t. THat’s LL’s problem. They can either aquire info to allow people in, or they can simply block access from these countries. The REAL legal issue with this AMERICAN company is allowing children to be exposed to pornography and pedophiles who like sexual ageplay. THAT is enforcable by the US Government.]
I think you’ll find that LL could no longer survive the loss of the revenue brought in by non- US customers Andrea. Businesses would suffer from the loss of world wide customers. Sure, if you think SL would be a better experience for you as an all-American community, go ahead and start a petition fo an ‘All-American SL’. After that, maybe you can start one for an ‘All-White SL’, then an ‘All-Able-bodied SL’, an ‘All-Republican SL’ and maybe an ‘All-Christian SL’? I think you’ll find the the majority of Americans enjoy the opportunity to spend time with non-Americans. For my part, my SL partner is American. Kick out all of us non-Americans and some of the Americans who are here mostly to spend time with non-US partners or friends will leave too.
I think you will find that - unless this current age verification hogwash has alerted them to the presence of under 18s - paedophiles would not be chosing SL to come to in search of youngsters to groom and corrupt. Surely, a paedophile would be trying to get into the Teen Grid of SL where he KNOWS there will be minors?
More importantly, underage residents should be kept out of SL to protect adults! All it takes is one child to come into SL pretending to be over 18 and for that child to enter into a relationship with an adult and for that relationship to be discovered and exposed. The adult may not even be remotely aware that the person they are having a relationship with is under age. Through no fault of their own, they can find themselves labelled a child sex offender with a criminal record. In one fell swoop, a person’s life can be ruined when the last thing on their mind was to abuse a child.
For this rason alone, this whole verification process is redundant. It is far to easy for children to steal a parent’s ID and become verified (we’ve already heard of one person in this thread who has supplied and had accepted a false ID under this system). It is impossible for many genuine adults outside of the US to become verified. The third party firm being employed to undertake this task is not trusted by a majority of residents either.
To be perfectly honest, I do not think there is a way to make SL 100% secure and to keep out every child, but making every person supply credit information would be a start. Yes - children can use credit cards, but as things stand, if a child is caught in SL they are ejected and they can create a new Yahoo email addess and be back in SL in under 30 minutes. If the account number was linked to a ban list, that person would find it more difficult to return to SL.
It IS important to keep youngsters out of SL, but this current system being planned is not going to do it. In fact, it will hurt adults more than it will hurt youngsters.
My bet is that the majority of those who have registered so far are under 18s
December 7th, 2007 at 1:46 AM
In Holland (=Netherlands)our privacy is protected by LAW !!!
if any company keeps record of my personal info without my concent they are in violation of DUTCH law !!!
I do want to ID as an Adult (do see why this is neccesary though, I’m registered with a VISA card so that should say enough….
BUT I DO NOT WISH TO BE CHECKED BY ILLEGAL MEANS NOR THRU ANY COMPANY THAT VIOLATES MY DUTCH PRIVACY LAW BY OBTAINING MY PRIVATE INFO WITHOUT MY CONCENT !
Greetz,
MrLunk Voom
http://www.CANNACABANNA.NL
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Cryophile/195/178/27
December 7th, 2007 at 1:52 AM
And from the Lindens, SILENCE. I am disgusted.
When is someone going to get some balls and answer these important and legitimate complaints?
December 7th, 2007 at 1:58 AM
I will never verify. I hate what you are doing to our world, LL.
Your silence about genuine fears that your customers have shows that you have no interest in anything except covering your own arses. You seem to simply not care what a known data-miner will do with this information.
In fact, given your continuous duplicity, it wouldn’t surprise me if you had come to an arrangement with Aristotle: they get all this wonderful data, you get AV on the cheap.
It’s time you ‘fessed up. It won’t be long until you aren’t the only game in town and you had better start treating better the people who pour money every single day into your company, paying your wages, filling your bellies.
Bait and switch is the mark of a con artist. Where can I find your Bunco Booth in world?
December 7th, 2007 at 1:58 AM
Wow, if I understand just half the rants here on this issue then the next time a local merchant asks to see some proof of ID when I use my credit card and I show my drivers license it’s “ILLEGAL USE OF PRIVATE INFORMATION” !!! Dang glad I’ve been set straight on that one !!
December 7th, 2007 at 2:00 AM
Why is the verification screen demanding an email address?
Many people have a number of email addresses and/or change address over time. If Aristotle/Integrity think they have *the* correct email address for an identity, there’s a high chance they have it wrong.
Why is the verification screen offering ID methods that it can not possible verify? In my country, as in many others, the information being asked for is simply not available as ‘public records’ and is not available to commercial entities either, not even to domestic entities!
It is clear from comments here and in the Forums that Integrity’s data on addresses is years out of date.
What I see on that is screen is a data harvesting exercise.
For countries with decent Data Protection regimes, Integrity can not check the input against anything it has access to.
The only logical interpretation is that Integrity will have a richer database after people supply ID information that Integrity could not possibly obtain in any other way. BUT - they say that they will only store but never use? Come along, do try to keep up with the class!!
The demand for an email address is particularly suspect.
We don’t all live in Kansas, Toto.
We don’t all live in a society where peoples’ personal data is unprotected and traded freely.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:03 AM
Oh and Andrea, when SL is a US ony onlinhe world and LL announcesd that they have gone bankrupt and SL will close at the end of the month, please feel free to blame all of us non-Amricans for deserting your beloved SL.
#67 and #68. There IS a suitable alternative to SL. It’s called Hipihi and it’s an exact copy of SL. I have not tried it although I know of several people who ran businesses in SL who have made the switch. They say it’s still a pretty barren place at the moment, but the potential is there. Recently (in the last few days) another friend has sold her businesses in SL, put her land up for sale and switched to Hipihi - that after being here in SL since early 2005 - and joined with some other ex SL landowners to start businesses in that world. Her reports are similar to the others I hear - not a lot gong on there yet, but it’s growing.
For my part, I want to hold out with SL for a while longer. First off, SL is American owned and I like Democracy. Hipihi is Chinese and I have no idea how much I would be lining the pockets of the Chinese government. Secondly, I have built up my business here and my friends are here too. However, if LL decide to make me choose between SL and the law of my country, I’ll be moving to Hipihi.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:03 AM
Hey, just one question while I’m at it…… I’m verified and would like only verified members to be able to IM me or see my profile. Is that a possibility? I’d love that feature =)
December 7th, 2007 at 2:09 AM
Sorry for the second post. #74 came in while I was typing - and there’s not edit facility here.
#74 the issue is not the showing of ID to a merchant for visual inspection.
The issue is handing over sensitive ID data to be stored in a database.
The issue is compounded by the nature of the entity controlling the database and the data protection environment in which it operates.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:19 AM
The issues I am looking at, as a land owner (I own 2 sims, and both of which have what could be cosnidered by some to be mature content), is that the information being asked for can be moved around, flasafided, or just plain made up.
I don’t think a lot of us have begun to see the depeer picture here. It would seem that LL is looking to have our in world personalities tied to a real person, for the express purpose of taxing any SL based revenue. Why else would they need:
RL Name
RL Mailing address (Street, city, country, state, and ZIP)
DoB
and the identity piece
I beg all of you to wake up, and fight this while there is still time. I have asked for the boycott of buying and selling of L$ on Dec. 11. Granted some buisnesses need to pay rent or sim owners need to pay tier, but beyond the nessessary transactions, I would advise everyone else not to use the Lindex services that day.
Almost at the same time, LL announced a down day for the main and beta grids. I am not sayignt he 2 are inter-related, but it sure is an ironic coincidence.
There has already been seen an overwhelming responce from the members who have been informed of this, and the reasons behind the move to fight this OBVIOUS invasion of privacy. We do not work for LL, we are not applying for jobs with LL, nor are we in any way required to give out our personal data to them or anyone else.
Our oversees customers and visitors, likewise, would be forced ot break the laws of their countries. Do we really want them breaking their laws, just to play what ammounts to a game?
It will be interesting to see the reaction of LL to the boycott.
One other thought. We sim owners, bought our servers. We only used LL as a third party, to connect them to the SL grid. I wonder if we will be getitng those servers if we close our accounts? if not, there is another course to take.
If you wish to see more on the boycott, check out the SL Herald article:
http://foo.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/12/ponygirlsara-cl.html
December 7th, 2007 at 2:20 AM
Yet an other storm in SL. I wonder how many players will leave SL because of this.
As new player, I dont realise the magnitude of the result of age verification.
It takes a great deal of effort to do some reading on this matter. Mostly I read are fears and protests.
I think the best issue to solve trouble is not to do a thing. By solving one trouble several new ones are appearing. I wonder how many people will leave SL now.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:23 AM
@78 Ok , but I still don’t get the ’sensitive ID data’ issue you describe. For me in California they wanted a DL number or last 4 digits of SS number and address. Those are things that unfortunately every credit card , auto insurance , bank, business aka public record already have….. so what’s the big deal lol ? Privacy is a fallacy in this tech age ; admit it )
December 7th, 2007 at 2:24 AM
@ 74 - It is if said merchant makes a copy your DL or credit card when you show it to them and then sells that info to someone else along with a list of what you bought that day without your explicit consent to do so.
People are not giving that consent with this, we have been told that “no information is being kept whatsoever” we have however also been told this measure was to help tie an ava and person to a real location. If no info is being kept what is it exactly that is tying an ava to a real location. Tying implied there is an attachment kept somewhere on file.
If the statement someone said above is true that the information is being “vaulted” by aristotle for 2 years then the people that have already verified and those that do, have been duped into it under false pretences and promises by LL that no data was being kept whatsover. It would be nice to know, so these people could take whatever measure has been put in place to allow them to request the data being stored about them be wiped from Aristotles database as they were told it was not being being stored or kept.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:29 AM
Oh please people. Willl you just grow up? It’s voluntary, if you don’t wish to do it,don’t. Simple as that. As far as not being able to enter certain areas, well every action has a consequence. I am tired of the incessant whining on this. If you’re not 18, you shouldn’t be here anyway. I’m probably going to take flak for this, but it sounds to me like we’ve all grown spoiled.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:32 AM
Well, to connect a Avatar to Realife person, a file will be created, meaning someone is keeping this personal info, you alllready have my credit card info. Linden labs you know very well this is a major lawsuit waiting to happen, cause once somene verifies and gets the first lil hint of spam or junk mail related to this, it will be on yours and this third party companies hands. THINK THINGS THROUGH before something bad happens
December 7th, 2007 at 2:34 AM
Arghhh Yerks …. getting sick of that Sicko Arrogance of the US ….
Broke all the european laws on private information for that stupid (and maybe money-making thing for The Lindens only) Age verification ….
For the European Citizens dear Linden … pls read
“Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data”
I broke all those … cose I wished to be fair and square with Linden Labs …. BUT Are they to us ????? The 1,000,000 USD question ….
The only response I got was … Sorry can t verify …. etc
December 7th, 2007 at 2:34 AM
i just found the following in another Blog:
“”"”"Keep in mind what is going on is not Age Verify. That is not the correct words. The correct words are Porn Access. They swagger about with pride that they are storing no information, but they are storing Y or N. That means Y, you did explicitly request Porn Access in a well known harbor of kiddie porn, or N you did not.
You can judge for yourself if you at any time in the future will ever face a situation where you don’t want it known in response to a background check or subpoena that you requested Porn Access. If you are 100% sure that at no time in the future will you ever face a situation where you would not want that known, then go ahead and RPA, Request Porn Access. There is absolutely no cost to you in not making such a Request that will be kept in their records.
Why risk it? There is small risk and zero return. No value at all in taking that risk.”"”"”"
December 7th, 2007 at 2:56 AM
“Unfortunately, we are seeing a high failure rate for Internationally based customers using the age verification system. The failure rate is much higher than we saw in previous testing, and clearly is unacceptable.” 70% of SL member are International and outside USA. If 70% got problems cuz of there contrys ID system or there are a LAW against it then it may be that 30-40% = bout 4 Mill Members may not ever be able to enter a Mature SIM with adult content in SL.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:57 AM
Consider this an informal request to follow up the notarized, bound-by-law legal request to cease and desist requesting the full Social Insurance Number from Canadian citizens. What you require of us is immoral at best, questionable, and highly suspect.
By Canadian law, you may not deny me access to services and may not deny me the right to do business if I refuse to give you my Social Insurance Number. The Social Insurance Number is *not* an identifier, and Social Insurance Numbers are given to children. They are not an identifier, and are invalid as identification beyond checking into an individual’s medical records, and tax history. This behavior is prohibited by Canadian federal law for nongovernmental purposes. Have you done your homework?
Robin? Please resign. This is a failure of colossal magnitude, we did not want this, and we do not need an overmeasured, undereffective system such as this.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:01 AM
Well I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I will not be flagging any of my parcels; I will not be verifying.
I left IMVU when the owners of that system ruined the developer economy, I will leave SL when the time comes to choose between my privacy and what is, in the end, only a game. I notice with interest that the Chinese are developing a system very similar to Second Life and I am sure that others will follow.
THis type of content creation/society network is, if not a major step forward, then an interesting step forward in social networking and business. I see it as a short time indeed when second life items will be linked to real life items for