No Q4 Pricing Changes Planned
Tuesday, October 9th, 2007 at 9:10 PM by: Robin LindenRecent comments on this blog, and at least one post on a Resident blog, express concern that Linden Lab is planning to raise prices on monthly maintenance fees for land. In order to clarify our pricing intentions, I want to reiterate that:
- we have no immediate plans to raise the ‘grandfathered’ island pricing. This doesn’t mean it won’t change at some point, but certainly not in Q4.
- we are evaluating changes to the configuration of premium /basic subscription models and to mainland tier pricing, but have no specific plans, and again, we don’t expect anything to change in Q4.
- we are also reviewing some pricing changes on the LindeX associated with rolling out more international payment mechanisms, but the variety of global payment mechanisms make this very challenging, and we don’t expect any changes in Q4.
Should we decide at a future time that we need to implement pricing changes, we’ll give as much advance notice as we possibly can to facilitate your planning.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:19 PM
Thanks for the clarification Robin! Glad to hear that pricing / fees will remain stable at least through 2007. Sorry to be a pest but there’s two other things I’m hoping for more information on — how are things going with the IDV stuff, will there be some beta time for the in-world aspects of this, now that the registration beta has been going for a while? I’m also interested in the Estate level governance topic which was blogged about in April, then not a peep about it since then.
Cheers!
October 9th, 2007 at 9:27 PM
I’m hoping that as technology gets better that we can pay less for more land/prims and not more. The land costs are definitely near the limits of what I’m willing to pay for. I really hope that it wouldn’t be the other way around. It’s virtual land not real.
If it doesn’t get cheaper, then the business model is likely too aggressive in spending.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:28 PM
PS… you guys are doing a great job though!
October 9th, 2007 at 9:30 PM
So newer estate owners will continue to subsidize the mainland and our competition. 50% higher fees with no measures to balance the market in sight.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:36 PM
thanks for the clarification
October 9th, 2007 at 9:37 PM
I agree with #2 OpenAndSay…please consider making things easier for your investors…in-world land owners. There needs to be some kind of balance so that we are able to maintain our business, pay our bills (including Linden Lab tier), and still have a little left over to re-invest. I greatly appreciate the extra service you give to your best customers, and that has helped me to decide to stay and continue onward in this virtual world adventure!!
October 9th, 2007 at 9:44 PM
Wait a moment you said last year when people complaining about the cost increase you said no kater the 2008 Feb you would raise those grandfather cost to the going rate? Make up your mind? you were to give 60 day notice for said raises now you chanaging you minds? What is it your going to raise all cost even higher later? is that why you postponing the rate increases? in one way its good the increase is not coming. But the bad part is the possiblity of it being higher might happen sooner then we think.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:44 PM
#4 As an island owner you get many more options than a mainland sim owner has available to them, powerful tools for land maintenance and other things. So no, you’re not subsidizing us, unless you figure out a way to give us estate tools on mainland sims, then I’d gladly pay the tier difference. Additionally, the sim I’m in was not setup specifically for me, for my needs, and is surrounded by 8 other sims and some of the jerks that fill them.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:45 PM
@Nikki: Don’t forget you get a lot of added functionality, terraforming, terrain and management flexibility for your additional 50%, and your initial purchase price was no doubt lower than most people have paid historically for mainland sims. Also you get low lag, no rotating ads and views of water surrounding your island.
In this economic climate it would be suicide to raise mainland tier rates. It could quite possibly be the end of SL. then the island you paid for would not be worth very much at all.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:45 PM
I for one–would sure like to see business here get a break of some kind with this–we are helping SL by supplying the content that help make this place interesting–most are barely making it.
Closely related to this problem is if Traffic meant something that actually indicated where people are actually buying things
October 9th, 2007 at 9:49 PM
If tier goes up on mainland, I would expect land to hit 4L/M the next day.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:55 PM
Great news to hear. IMO tier is overpriced as is for the level of service recieved. I would hate to think that a platform as currently unstable and bug ridden as this had it’s makers even considering raising prices. I pay tier on a full sim right now, 200usd a month is hard to shell out when I am having daily issues with bugs and crashes and lagg, a price increase would not be a welcome sight at all.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:57 PM
They’ll do it in Q5, I know it!
October 9th, 2007 at 10:01 PM
so all the people in the e u with sims and v a t should all be out of buisness by then
October 9th, 2007 at 10:07 PM
correct me if im wrong.. but are we not in Q1 FY08?
October 9th, 2007 at 10:07 PM
Great to have info Robin!
Thank you - it’s much appreciated.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:08 PM
Very good to hear this news but even better to see such fears addressed. I can only speak for myself but it’s good to see Linden Lab’s recent blog directly addressing current widespread misconceptions and rumors.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:14 PM
I really hope the tier doesn’t ever go up, this will really suck if it goes up even more, 195 is hard enough for me to pay every month,
If pricing does go up on the private islands I will be forced to probably give mine up.
I am glad that through the remainder of 2007 prices will remain the same, But I really hope for the grandfathered rates, stay the same.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:14 PM
Er Robin, you mean as much notice as you were about to hike the prices for EU customers. Oh no wait you didnt even tell some people before you did, cant wait to see you guys in court over that. illegal in europe! Luckily enough it didnt happen to me but did a lot of friends i know! I advise all of you that had this happen to them to contact your VAT office within your respective countries, we have HMRC in the UK, and they confirmed it is indeed illegal to charge it with out specifying they are charging it.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:18 PM
They don’t need to raise prices. They’re getting all their boonies off of us Europeans in the form of so called VAT with no VAT numbers given, even when requested by me.
So us Europeans had better demand our VAT numbers from Linden Labs for any VAT charges incurred, which they have to supply us BY LAW upon request, or we can surmise that their VAT charges are fraudulent….
I want each and every bill taken from me that incurs VAT to have a legal VAT Number that I can trace to see if the monies are actually going to the UK Treasury and not their pockets.
So come on LL, give us our VAT Numbers, as is our legal right.
Pol McLaglen.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:25 PM
If Grandfathered islands did rise in Tier, i would most certainly sell all of my SIMs. Its just not value for money when you consider the general game performance. I get red bars lag on residential sims when hardly anyone is actually on it.
i have had to suck up the additional VAT charges ……enough already!!. Given the impact of VAT on new Europeans even considering buying SIM’s or mainland plots, the impact of gambling ban, the future impact of Age verification……there is only one direction Linden Labs should be going in regarding Tiers inorder to stimulate the economy…and that’s to reduce all tier charges right across the board!.
This is meant to be a global game, but how many peoples can realistically spend $1675 for a new sim or afford the $295 monthly tiers in a already flattened economy.?
One has to consider countires average national earnings, which really means only North Americans, West Europeans, Japanese and Australians are able enough with their disposable income to afford it. Well the latest VAT changes practically wipes out Europeans because of a competitive disadvantage, so that just leaves the other 3 regions to pick up the slack.
My making land more affordable you bring back more people into the equation and might see less barren lands across the grid and more Tiers collected by LL. It’s about scale of Economy……and in that department i think Linden Labs are actually clueless!
I also have a Mainland sim for my sins, with a large Mall on it. It severely suffers from lag most of time and that’s without the use of campers making it a not so crowded area. Some of my vendors have not been able to TP there to renew their rents, potential shoppers have landed unable to move in the lag and TP’d straight back out!
I sent Linden Support a ticket on the 26th Sept……and guess what, nearly 2 weeks later the ticket hasn’t even been looked at. The status of my ticket is still “New”…..i would prefer to read that as “Old, but Linden Labs doesn’t feel it’s that important”
For that sort of customer service, Linden Labs should dare to even contemplate price increases???
Should people really be paying $195 to $354 (incl.VAT) for any sim when it at times its hard to fdo the following :
-Unable to control walking due to lag
-Unable to fly consistenly without flying off world or
several sims futher on.
- The potential of losing inventory costing real money not being reimbursed
- Unable to TP a good number of time even to non-full SIMS
- Unable to use Search consistenly, which has direct
impact on sales too.
- Search affecting on Classified Adverts for a week but not working 24/7 for a week. Again money down the pan.
- Account balance not loading or problems with transaction history not updating immediatley
- Customers buying goods, either taking money twice because of the of the lag or not delivering products to them.
- Arriving at a location, but the area takes 5-10 mins to load, and wasting a lot of time looking at grey matter
- inventory taking an age to load, especially when you want to re-texture
…….and the list of basic functionality goes on.
If Linden Labs wants to retain it customer base long term, then those basic functionality issues need to be sorted out yesterday. Forget VOICE..forget WINDLIGHT…just let me walk in a straight line unimpeded by lag for a change!.
I need not remind LL that their are other virtual platforms being developed and are already at beta stage!
i
October 9th, 2007 at 10:29 PM
…as one of the many landowners who fall underneath the concierge level…i would really not like to see our tiers raised…as it stands now the only thing we have is ur support website and i cant say that my overall treatment from them has been great…poor to muddling maybe…yes i am one who strongly opposed the removal of live help admittedly but if i have a problem i have to wait until u get around to it…will that improve if u raise tiers?…will there be more benefits for the err lower rungs of land tiers?…or is it a case of pay up and shut up?…some may say well sell ur land…dont whinge and so on…but we all pay tiers and it really should be a better service we get before u even think of raising them…we all invest money by paying tiers and m’ship…improvements first then maybe just maybe we wouldnt be complaining…
October 9th, 2007 at 10:33 PM
If anything, the goal should be to eventually offer lower prices to all landowners for their holdings while providing them with a higher level of service as technology allows and your business model becomes more stable. I am happy to hear that there are no immediate plans to raise prices on those who have put so much into SL. A great milestone would be to eventually bring all island owners fees back down to the pre-increase level.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:46 PM
21 Rene Erlanger
lets not forget the us dollar is 1.46 (last checked) to 1 euro.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:47 PM
I’m happy to hear there won’t be any changes made for a while but I do agree with many people on the above points. There should be a little more effort to lower the prices. If its not profitable try offering more services. People would gladly pay a little extra to be able to for example make prims over the size of 10×10x10 on their own private sim. Just a suggestion. =^.^=
October 9th, 2007 at 10:58 PM
The lights are on at Linden Labs: Posting this notice @
Tuesday, October 9th, 2007 at 9:10 PM PDT by: Robin Linden
Nice to see somebody at Linden Labs our time of day !!!
October 9th, 2007 at 10:59 PM
24 going somewhere
Rate of exchange doesn’t come into it……..its about disposable income and standard of living!
Go look up and see what the average e.g Brasilian’s monthly salary is….then come back here on this blog and tell me if you think that either $195 or $295 montly tiers are affordable to them!!
October 9th, 2007 at 11:09 PM
I believe that as much effort should be done to keep the current pricing scheme, but I also note several other means for capital that may allow for that.
I second Ameshin’s suggestion on allowing for different pricing for different premium accounts.
For example: there could be —
Builder Premium Accounts that allow for special priv’s, like the ability to *create* megaprims and access a special sculpty creator or something.
Scripter’s Premium Account for direct integration with Eclipse, etc.
Estate Owner’s Account, that lets them manage all their estates on one interface… (the ability to have multiple views shown on one client screen, etc.)
and so on.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:12 PM
sadly it doesnt matter if it’s affordable to us. is it affordable to LL to keep them at 195 or raise them to 295. That my friend is the question. And yes… the exchange rate does come into play when you use your CC or go to the bank and withdraw us dollars, or write a check for us dollar amount. Your buying us dollar items (tier) you pay the us dollar exchange rate to your currency.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:21 PM
“No Q4 Pricing Changes Planned”
Hmm, is it just me or do i now stare nervously at Q1/Q2 2008.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:22 PM
So, what you saying is “We won’t raise the fees now, because (european) members are already pissed at the whole VAT issue, so let’s wait a few months, until they have accepted the situation and THEN raise the costs.”
The monthly fees are already quite expensive, especially with all the lags, bugs and technical limitations.
Now, if you were telling, that you would (someday) raise the fees and also raise the prim limit (and give us back mega prims), maybe I could accept it.
In that case I would just sell some land, so that my monthly costs wouldn’t blast my budget (and goodbye “own-sim-dream”).
October 9th, 2007 at 11:29 PM
@31 thats where I’d say it’s time to petition and take action of sorts if you really disagree.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:30 PM
Premium, as it stands, really isn’t that good a deal.
Be bold, give people a reason to go premium - like limiting free accounts to 500 inventory items, make voice part of the premium account and, how’s this for a good one - only allow premiums to sell on the Lindex (but anyone can buy).
If you reduced land costs to compensate, you would be surprised as to how many people would buy more land than they already have, beyond what they are currently paying. Oh, and whilst we’re at it, how about the low prim sims individually instead of having to buy in a pack of 4 and tacking on to a full island? Trust me when I say they would sell very well.
Broccoli
October 9th, 2007 at 11:32 PM
@7
Actually, Robin and Philip made two promises during the townhall meeting (check the blog history for Nov of ‘06)
1. No tier increase “throughout 2007″ (Earliest effective date then would be 1 Jan ‘08 - Q1)
2. Minimum 60 day advanced notice to grandfathered region owners in the event of tier increase
If they were to increase tier on 1 Jan 08, the latest they could notify the sim owners is 2 Nov 07.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:39 PM
And if anyone after looking back at LL history believes this announcement for one second you have no one to blame but yourself. Or, if this announcment is on the level, watch out for January 2 2008. LOL
Or does anyone think it is actually fair for some members to have to pay $295 a month (European users now $350 a month) while others are paying $195 or even $150 a month?
Now I don’t begrudge people getting sims at $195 a month. I do think it is unfair to merchants who have to try to compete with such sims while paying 50% more monthly tier charge. This whole situation is unethical. (And please don’t anyone start talking about “class 5 servers”. LL packs 4 sims to a server regardless and have themselves admitted Class 5’s have no discernable speed/performance difference than a Class 4).
Just another in a long line of knee-jerk policies and untrustworthy PR announcments. No apologies on my part for telling it like it is.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:40 PM
I am more interested in the need for this statement by Robin in the first place. Since when has LL showed any interest in what people think over the last few months?
We had the “transparancy” article yesterday telling us all how “wonderful it is to work for LL” and out of the blue now we have “we won’t be raising prices”. Two articles oozing care, yeah right.
Has the EU VAT fiasco struck that deeply? The SL economy was badly damaged by the inept handling of the gambling ban and the same ineptness was displayed in handling the EU VAT situation. And we must’nt Age verification and Privacy Laws storm. Again an ongoing exercise ineptness, with more still to come on that storm front. (Off topic , hopefully an EUer will now question LL’s standards of privacy protection as it acts as an agent for EU Taxes. Surely it must guarantee to meet the requirements of the Privacy laws set down by the EU? Something for another days discussion)
There are alternatives to SL fast coming online, and all of the sudden, LL blogs appear talking of transparency and sharing information. Sorry guys, this little effort isnt going to let LL keep its market lead. Nor will nerd magnets like “Voice” & “Windlight” keep the masses paying and staying when so many of the basics remain unstable or broken. The nerds will stay and play with the new wonder toys, so LL will undoubtably be forced into major price rises as its ordinary paying members leave for fairer virtual shores. Kinda poetic really. Fix the basics is screamed over and over by so many and consistently ignored by LL. (cue wonder speil of Windlight by an LL Alt in 5,4,3,2.1..?? oops! cue petulant spiel by Linden Alt ” leave then why don’t ya” in 3,2, 1……….Damm , it must be broken to, oh well…..)
Post 21 is spot on, fix the basics, fix communications before new major changes. Umm! 2 weeks for a help desk ticket still in the open stage? Fix that to! Of course all the non paying SL members (the vast majority and the smart ones I sometimes think) are excluded from helpdesk anyway so those monthly stats appearing from LL on problems, merely gives truth in the old adage “lies, damned lies and statistics.”
And as Robin previously said, LL was absorbing the EU VAT taxes, so obviously as the EU’ers are paying that themselves now, there is no need to raise prices for some time. So, again, why the sudden post?
LL worst nightmare will be another SL competitor that actually will provide real customer service to its paying members, listen, act and get the basics right first. The question then becomes what must LL do to retain its paying members, considering its long track record of ignoring the concerns of the bulk of its paying members? LL is very good at pandering to a small elitest technocratic wonder toy obessed lobby group, It FAILS completely in building any sort of ongoing trust relationship with the bulk of its members (non IT people). Its arrogance will come back and bite soon I suspect. It will soon run into the harsh reality of the commercial world. To maintain profits, as numbers of paying members walk, then prices will rise. As prices rise, more members will walk, so prices will rise again to meet profit targets.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:49 PM
#21
Rene, Yes !! you speak from my heart:
“i have had to suck up the additional VAT charges ……enough already!!. Given the impact of VAT on new Europeans even considering buying SIM’s or mainland plots, the impact of gambling ban, the future impact of Age verification……there is only one direction Linden Labs should be going in regarding Tiers inorder to stimulate the economy…and that’s to reduce all tier charges right across the board!.”
October 9th, 2007 at 11:53 PM
Na toll! Fuer uns Europaer wurden die Preise ja mal eben um fast 20% angehoben. Schoen, dass es keine weitere Veraenderung in den naechsten drei Monaten geben soll!
October 9th, 2007 at 11:53 PM
[...] We are also reviewing some pricing changes on the LindeX associated with rolling out more international payment mechanisms, but the variety of global payment mechanisms make this very challenging, and we don’t expect any changes in Q4. Source: No Q4 Pricing Changes Planned [...]
October 9th, 2007 at 11:56 PM
I hope you won’t raise Island fee’s. Increasing the monthly Tier fees for Private Island owners, We (the land barons) would have to redo all of our tiers and ofcourse people will understand it, But making to maybe $395 a month, Would be insane. $295 is good as it is, make it’s higher, I personally think people will leave sl. as the costs for having a great virtual experience would be blown away by increasing costs for them. Lets state: It ain’t a real world, Ofcourse LL can increase whenever they want to, i hope they re-re-re-rethink their actions before they actually do something!. I will stay in SL no problem, But if tiers are being raised I see the future for me and alot of other residents not that Shiny And Brighty.
Thanks
October 10th, 2007 at 12:00 AM
60 Days notice, like say VAT, couldn’t even manage 24 hours notice in some instances. Gambling didn’t even qualify for 1 hours notice. I had people on one of my sims had just spent 500US$ on slotm/c and so on the night before to expand their club, they didn’t see a penny back.either from the seller or Linden Labs. And if Linden currency is only play money and has no value as the totally misleading TOS says why am I now paying over 400US$ more per month in Value Added Tax for my sims?
Like to answer the last Robin, as I couldn’t get to the town hall along with many other Europeans as you only seemed to have 1 sim in operation and you didn’t stream anything anywhere that I could find. Is that so you could say only 100 attended, so we must have accepted it? Also if you insist on removing large amounts of VAT from my account tell me you VAT registration number as you are required to do every time you do it so I can see you are not pocketing my money.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:03 AM
amen to Pol McLaglen
October 10th, 2007 at 12:04 AM
2nd point. If anything should be raised it should be mainland. Estate owners. take over a problem from Lindenlabs, We controll an area (region), we solve those problems, we maintain that land. Also if estate would rise again. Many people will be going to rent land or buy at mainland. This would be just as worse as the Credit Crisis in the US right now. Company’s will go bankrupt. And in the end no one gets better with that. So if they can change the Tier fee prices every year, I wonder what 1 region estate would cost in 5 years from now. 900 USD?
October 10th, 2007 at 12:08 AM
btw EU is paying with the conversion only 247.998 US Dollar. This includes their beloved VAT fees. Before their VAT fees they were only paying 138.17 US dollar (with today’s currancy http://secondlife.reuters.com/). Granted there are some fees that the bank charges but still come on… it’s still cheaper then what the US pays.
It’s like if i went to mexico and bought a VW down there. Alot cheaper… but then again now days even the Mexican Paso is worth almost as much as the dollar ( 0.092352 USD to 1 paso).
You can talk all you want about cost of living and how EU pays nearly 2 euro per liter of gas… your still buying an american product.
Dont get me wrong, im not for the tier increase. I like having the ability to provide a mall were merchants only pay 2L per prim and not hiked up rates you find on an island so that merchants can actually sell their items and make a profit. Increasing the tier would kill my mall as it is it’s hard enough to come through the 195 monthly tier rate i have. I own a 33,000sqm land for my mall.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:11 AM
44 going somewhere
“why am I now paying over 400US$ more per month in Value Added Tax for my sims?”
Because you live in the EU. As mentioned before, it’s something YOU need to take up with your VAT agency… especially if LL isnt giving you your VAT numbers like they are suppose to be doing. I’ve lived in EU before, I understand how the VAT works to a certain degree. Because i was military i was VAT waived… however i still had to bring my VAT forms i purchased on base to a store… which included a VAT number…. which i got a copy of!
October 10th, 2007 at 12:11 AM
well in this post i seen that there are discussing in prices in premium basic accounts, but for that i dont think is right to do because i can barely afford the payment plan i go with all my other rl expenses and i dont think anybody would want their premium prices be raised, anyway thats all i really have to comment on ciao
October 10th, 2007 at 12:16 AM
@36 I whole-heartedly agree with you. The lack of a trust relationship with LL is all due to their poor attitude toward the SL community. Without trust you cannot build customer loyalty…with no loyalty, the stampede to a new virtual world will be staggering.
I love what I have here in SL. I love the friends I have here too. If I, or some of my friends, leave for a friendlier managed virtual world, I suspect we all would leave to maintain our connections. Then the friends of the friends would do so and it would fan out from there.
Perhaps LL is finally aware of the huge c*ck-up they have done and are making some gestures to improve things. I hope it’s not too late, but I am suspicious that the underlying corporate culture of LL will prevail in the end and the arrogance and disconnect of management will continue no matter how hard they try to dress it up.
It’s so sad to watch a company blindly fly a great virtual world into the ground.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:17 AM
“34 Cliff Dieffenbach Says:
October 9th, 2007 at 11:32 PM PDT
@7
Actually, Robin and Philip made two promises during the townhall meeting (check the blog history for Nov of ‘06)
1. No tier increase “throughout 2007″ (Earliest effective date then would be 1 Jan ‘08 - Q1)”
That is what I was refering too
October 10th, 2007 at 12:18 AM
if you buy a year subscription, then 75us dollars is a great price when you compare all the other gaming places out there. Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt WOW charge 10.00 us dollars a month? If your down with POGO, they chage 25 a month… and if your like me, play spades in a myleague place, it’s 20us dollars a month.
While 75 may not be worth it compared to a FREE account it is by far the cheapest price you will find for a gaming site. YES SL is still a game.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:21 AM
Robin not to be pedantic but business wise aren’t you guys now in Q1 and in the UK it’s Q3, so Q2 starts in January for the USA and it’s Q4 for the UK.
Or are you basing Q4 on a calendar year? In which case the period up until the end of this year would be Q4.
To be truly fair with notice you should give 60 days, this gives mainland owners time to tier down (or up if pricing is favourable) and doesn’t hit Estate owners where it hurts right away.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:25 AM
50 Tony
that’s what im screamin…. It’s Q1 in the US as you stated. IF she really means Q4 FY08, then would shouldnt expect any increases until Dec 31st 2008.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:27 AM
I have decided to drop back to basic when the time comes. 500 Lindens every 2 weeks and the 512 sqm are just not worth the price.
What happens to Caledon determines if I stay or go in sl.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:31 AM
@50
It depends on if you’re basing your schedule off of Calendar Year (CY) or Fiscal Year (FY)
Fiscal year, Q1 starts on 1 Oct. For CY, Q1 Starts on 1 Jan.
It’s safe to assume that LL’s schedule is using CY as they’re referring to the latter part of the year as Q4 (also taking their promises into account otherwise they would have said “no tier increases for Q1).
October 10th, 2007 at 12:48 AM
Glad to hear no increases in the works…… uh, at least for the next two months, I guess?
Something I’d love more info on you mentioned there…. You said international payment options on the Lindex?!?! Sounds great, if as I’m hoping, you mean currency options, other then the sole option to use the horribly depreciating US Dollar.
I converted all my other assets away from US Dollars long ago. No option of this with LL, so I’m forced to see profits dwindle. Please, Please, PLEASE, add some other currency options on here. You know, at least some of the major ones… like Euros, Yens, Pounds, etc.
This would help us all, American business owners too, having the option of safer currencies! Most other websites with monetary accounts have currency options available in some fashion. Seems odd LL doesn’t include this… isn’t SL a global, international world, not an All-American one?
Anyway, just something to consider, I hope. I’ve posted it on JIRA, as have others, easy to miss when it’s only a concern to us big business owners in SL, other things are more pressing, I’m sure. Other than that, keep at it, Lindens, great job all and all
October 10th, 2007 at 12:48 AM
I did plan on bringing some of my R/L business customers here, many are not VAT registered but still need full invoicing to escape the taxes, whats the invoice situation Lindens? We need know the details!
Also I havn’t even been able to log on to my account to show them even, is it normal for 3day+ problem resolution? I was due to introduce quite a few businesses to SL on Friday, I’m sure customer support will decide if I ever do.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:54 AM
Never heard of Q4, is that a new version of SL?
October 10th, 2007 at 12:56 AM
Jimmy,
you couldnt just create a FREE ACCOUNT? ;P
October 10th, 2007 at 12:57 AM
Oh yes, we have LAG, ALTS to the heavens, at times a game that breaks down and takes days to get corrected, a support system at times leads me to believe their operators are some where in india, etc etc etcd. Oh 75.00 a year for al this and MORE……….And don`t for get griefters……… thats a bonus
October 10th, 2007 at 12:57 AM
Fees must go down or LL need to up the services it provides for the price before even considering rasing them.
Like all fresh starters with big plans I was happy to take it on the nose but as time passes I see the problems but mostly complete lack of service from LL annoys me the most.
VAT, AGE, Gambling no notifications etc you cant even get a list of approved games but they will let you buy them then refuse to let you use them.
I am starting to realise how much money I am actually wasting. It never use to feel like that.
Competition would be bad for LL as it will split the virtual world market but it maybe the only thing that finally wakes them up and gets a better world for us
I get the feeling it has nothing to do with individuals anymore. They are after business the reason the changes are so hard to stomach is because they are aimed at removing those who are not. SL is changing.
October 10th, 2007 at 1:15 AM
Basically moore’s law is what allows more land per dollar in the long run. LL does have a problem if they raise prices too often and too fast. Especially if they dont allow more land and prims or something. If they don’t fix basic issues then they are in danger of competition gaining on them.
And remember, blogs are NOT substitutes for conversations!
October 10th, 2007 at 1:17 AM
WTF IS GOING ON WITH THIS VAT CRAP ANYWAY IN THE UK IF YOU EARCH 100 POUNDS YOU GET TAXED ON 100 POUNDS NOT 1000 AND THE TAX YOUR TAKIN THE PISS OUT OF US THE ISLAND FEE IS 295$ SO THE TAX COMES OUT OF THAT UNLESS YOU ARE NOW SAYING INFACT ITS MORE THAN 295$ FALSE ADVERTISEING A MATTER FOR THE COURTS MAYBE
October 10th, 2007 at 1:27 AM
No comment then on the (well substantiated) rumour that tier increases are planned from Jan 1 and that just as last year the large land barons have been informed well in advance? To clarify, I was informed of this by a land baron who has over $100K US invested in sims. Perhaps I will be flamed for this, perhaps not, but in the present atmosphere of “transparency” and communication another voice pointing out that the Emperor is naked has its place.
Further (and unfortunately off topic, for which I apologise to fellow residents) on the subject of “transparency” and communication, if Linden Lab truly would “love to hear” from their CUSTOMERS about businesses which handle transparency, communication and customer service better than they currently seem able to, perhaps they should consider removing the comment cap on the relevant so that more than the current tiny fraction of their *cough* 10 million residents can contribute?
October 10th, 2007 at 1:30 AM
@20 Lindens have published their VAT number, it is EU826011179 (see http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/04/vat-are-you-talking-about/ )
I accept that Lindens do have to charge VAT in EU countries, but, Linden Labs cannot just cherry pick wich EU regulations they intend to comply with, and this is opening a can of worms. The TOS is effectively a contract, and as such, cannot be amended at will under EU law. Also, I’m pretty certain that a refund has to be offered if the service is unavailable for any period. Finally, goods or services must be supplied “Fit for purpose” which in the case of SL, is not always true.
LL have already broken many EU laws, and will probably be forced to refund VAT charges taken so far.
I am also at a loss to understand the reasoning behind the sudden imposition of VAT. The reason quoted was because of the growth in Europe, making the implicit inclusion of VAT no longer tenable. The growth must mean more income from Europe, so the percentage VAT that Linden Labs say they were covering out of the goodness of their hearts remains the same, regardless of the growth. If it was affordable previously, why not now?
The effect is that SL business run by people based in the EU are no longer competitive, having to add around 20% to all prices charged within game.
Lindens also state that the Lindex is free from VAT because it is resident to resident transaction. However, if Lindens release more L$ onto Lindex, which they do periodically, these legally will incur VAT (unless of course L$ is a currency, and has an intrinsic value ;-))
Fortunately, the timing of the VAT announcement came before my payments to LL were due, so I will take my accounts back to basic, and buy land in a private sim - after checking that it is not owned by an EU based person or business. I imagine a lot of other people will do likewise.
So, raise you charges now or in the future. it no longer matters to me
October 10th, 2007 at 1:32 AM
51 going somewhere
Firstly i never mentioned exchange rates in my initial post anyway….so not sure why you brought it up anyway.
Exchanges rates are “Variable”….meaning what goes up can go down as we all know!
Tiers are fixed charges (unless changed by LL)
What i trying to point out is that SL is a global game with people logging in from numerous countries. However could someone from say Poland, Romania, Thailand, Turkey, South Amercia or various other countries whose average earnings are considerably lower than the “good ol’ U.S.of A” really afford raising $1675 for a SIM purchase…and then paying anything from $195 to $354 (incl.VAT) for monthly tiers?
The answer is No. You’ll find the majority of SIM’s are owned amongst the players from the 4 regions i mentioned……and now that 1 of those regions is handicapped with Sales taxes, that leaves 3 regions.
Linden has dumped around a 1000 new sims since April into the game….whose going to be buying these excess plots?
When i map the continents or PI’s, i see huge amounts of yellow blocks nowadays. You think that situation will improve if LL raises tiers……..yes or no?
October 10th, 2007 at 1:37 AM
“The answer is No. You’ll find the majority of SIM’s are owned amongst the players from the 4 regions i mentioned……and now that 1 of those regions is handicapped with Sales taxes, that leaves 3 regions.”
Well they are kind of selling to well larger companies. But then again some have seeing how bad things are and pulling out themselves. whenthe new price system pops in as many know it will soon, you see many many more then what you commented about.
October 10th, 2007 at 1:40 AM
WELL WHEN I BOUGHT MY SIMS IT SAID MONTHLY CHARGE IS 295$ NOT 295$ AND TAX THIS IS OBTAINTING MONEY WITH DECEPTION I WOULD NEVER HAVE INVESTED IN A GAME WHEN I HAVE TO PAY MUCH MORE THAN OTHER SIM OWNERS THE TAX IS YOUR RESPONSABILITY IT SHOULD COME FROM THE 295$ YOU SO QUICKLY SNATCH FROM ME EVERY MONTH THIS HAS GOTT TO BE ILLEAGLE IM GONNA LOOK IT UP
October 10th, 2007 at 1:42 AM
I “Love” The Way Linden Lab Has Managed To Gather All The People Of The World Together….
And Then Has Systematically Torn Them Apart Again…
Thats Just SO American…..
October 10th, 2007 at 1:45 AM
WELL SAID BRO
October 10th, 2007 at 1:52 AM
Day I get the same amount of euros than dolars when I change lindens in real currency I will agree with you going somewhere rigth now I’m getting pretty less euros than you dolars for same linden amount, so I need to do an extra 20% in world to make even.
Yes I’m handicapped
October 10th, 2007 at 1:59 AM
Well, I currently own Mainland and rent private too. I have never in 2 years had a response from LL when I have problems on the mainland, the private land however I get a response in 2 MIN, usually with the support person TP’ing to me, and a fix in 10 min or less. Sure I pay slightly more, but I have no lag, more prims and friendly efficient service.
I am selling enough of my own product now to no longer have to depend on the stipend (I wont get rich but its pocket money) and with IDV set to replace “payment info” as the preferred measure of trust, I see little reason to maintain premium account status. So if mainland tier goes up I will sell up, reduce to basic and probably extend my rented space.
And for those who think exchange rates benefit the Euro holders, it cuts both ways. I pay 7 to 1 on the US$ and have to declare my offshore holdings for tax, but still only earn on a 1 to 1 basis.
October 10th, 2007 at 2:00 AM
i think by lowering Tiers right across the board, LL might actually recieve more income in the long run. Making it affordable for more players to buy land that might lead to
this equation:
10000 x Y1 > 5000 x Y2
where Y2=Current Tier rates and Y1= reduced Tier rates
October 10th, 2007 at 2:10 AM
Could you please please, finally introduce a tick box, people can use to surpress Group IM…When promoting my parties, that´s one channel i use. If I don´t, the number of guests is max 50 per cent, of what it is, if i use group IM. However checking up next day i always lost 5 or more members, cose they felt spammed. So right now, i always have to bite a bullet either way.
Come on guys, this is being requested since forever. That cannot be so bloody difficult. While you´re at it, remove the 25 group limit too. It makes no sense.
And thanx for giving us a heads up, that there will be price increases in Q1 2008. Cose that´s my conclusion from reading the above.
Seeya
October 10th, 2007 at 2:15 AM
“The effect is that SL business run by people based in the EU are no longer competitive, having to add around 20% to all prices charged within game.”
no worries.. US residents will raise our prices charged within game to 20% to match yours
:PP
October 10th, 2007 at 2:17 AM
67 Milo Bellow Says:
I’m american…. and i think this is funny too
October 10th, 2007 at 1:42 AM PDT
I “Love” The Way Linden Lab Has Managed To Gather All The People Of The World Together….
And Then Has Systematically Torn Them Apart Again…
Thats Just SO American…..
October 10th, 2007 at 2:24 AM
*Lives the nice and quiet life of the basic resident and smiles brightly when sees how LL screw their residents more and more and more and more…* *yawns*
October 10th, 2007 at 2:28 AM
Rofl. Ladies and Gentlemen, how many days are left in 2007? A 60 day notice for tier increase changes. If LL decides to increase tiers in 2008 (read January ;), we get a notice in November? That’s correct no increasement in 2007. People are happy here with the news, but frankly, is it really news or just another marketing trick to shut people up…Just read the blog carefully. No “immediate” plans to increase fees. We all know that LL love to change plans with a 60 second notice
Right?
October 10th, 2007 at 2:34 AM
it’s a PC game on robins part no doubt about it… say all the nice things in the right way using the right words and we will vote robin linden for president soon.
October 10th, 2007 at 2:48 AM
@ 33 Broccoli Curry Says:
Premium, as it stands, really isn’t that good a deal.
Be bold, give people a reason to go premium - like limiting free accounts to 500 inventory items.
I assume this would be additional too the Linden Library, otherwise there are going to be a lot of strange looking avs walking around. This would be bad for Linden Lab marketing, it would be an even less attractive place.
Also wouldn’t this effect premium residents direct, especially those with businesses, for instance I picked up a freebie box a couple of days ago with 10,000 items in it, 500 items can be filled up with 500 crappy freebie items within a hour for all residents quite easily. That being the first thing new residents do, after a day they would be bored and not bother logging in again.
October 10th, 2007 at 3:02 AM
@78 & 33:
Calm down guys, i payed for my 500+ items and i have a basic acct (i had 2 premium before), so that limit you are proposing are simply a stupidity. You don’t have an alt? LMAO, surely you’re the only one.
October 10th, 2007 at 3:12 AM
i agree with those who have said tiers are high enough for the prims we get to use on the land.
i would highly appreciate a rise in the allowed prims before any further price increases (had my 20% increase when LL decided charge VAT on us Euros)
October 10th, 2007 at 3:19 AM
Just talking about prices & price increases…looking at my classifieds now, almost crying how much it is meanwhile….Which reminds me of last weeks total service outage (just cose the grid isn´t off, doesn´t mean sl is on)…Finally pay us some refunds, if not on the tiers, then at least on the classifieds.
If you don´t start moving towards us residents, then I am sure sooner or later the courts around the globe will force you to. Especially the ones in Europe, where you have crossed some very sensitive lines lately. Looking forward to it
Regards
October 10th, 2007 at 3:23 AM
WOW thank you Robin, a few comments and there is a reply.
The grandfathering is ment to happen in (Q1 08) according to the Linden blog posting of way back not Q4 07.
Now how about that posting on Verification and how Aristotle has integrity?
Can one still verify with made up data or no data at all?
How do they verify some countries ID when they do not have the raw data to verify against?
According to their own website the only actuall data they have is the Russian Drivers Licence database (Required). Everything else is (Suggested) implying that they do not have the records. I know they don’t have the Thai records, pretty sure thay don’t have the Cuban or Iranian, yet they can verify those countries users?
Any idea on what the charge will be for this “service”? Aristotle are saying their percentage 50 cents per user.
I am glad that you are taking the time to review their system and policies. Peoples identities are in a fragile state. Onle little accident and hundreds of thousands or possibily millions of peoples private information is out there. News is full of stories of mistaken trashing, taking home, loss or as in the case of LindenLabs a year or so back possible hacking. Is there an external trustworthy auditor?
Aristotle sell data. That is their bread and butter. I do not see how they can assure that the two systems never see each other. I do not see any assurances that they will not use the process of verification to validate or augment their own data for sale.
[Robin Linden:F:21:1600 Pennsylvania Avenue:NW Washington:DC:USA:20500:Democrat:NRA:SecondLifeUser:UnitedMiles:White:Hindu:Germany]
Aristotle seem to be on a masive move to get as many online with their system before Nov 08 and the elections. Big money in them there data hills. Are we being pressured into this for anothers financial gain?
October 10th, 2007 at 3:26 AM
@66 Many are HOPPING mad at ll for waht they done. But then agin we have a Linden going around saying all is well all is grand……..yea right….
October 10th, 2007 at 3:42 AM
Ill repeat and shall keep repeating it !!! Drop tier prices untill it really becomes worth the money, for now its really not the case… AND PLEASE STOP THE CAMPING !!! Really do something about that crap !!! have a nice day
October 10th, 2007 at 3:44 AM
ill repeat and shall keep on repeating it !!! Drop tier prices untill it really becomes worth the money, for now its really not the case… AND PLEASE STOP THE CAMPING !!! Really do something about that crap !!! have a nice day
October 10th, 2007 at 3:50 AM
I’m taking this post as Tiers ARE increasing, just not at the moment. A lot of my friends are either staying on basic accounts or not renewing their premium accounts when the time comes round. This says to me something, LL is expecting this and applying damage control.
I bought land with an EU landowner and my tier raise through them forced me to sell my land at a 20kL$ loss. I have found a place to be again but if my tier goes up beyond my means for a second time, well I’m going to lose my interest in trying to have my own place and build it.
The VAt issue, yes I’m an EU resident and yes it affected me. Suck it up from some of our US friends is hardly fair. We pay VAT through US sites which is applied from word go, usually the cos isn’t any different from the US because US taxes are applied anyway too. US residents who have business will be seeing a sharp decrease in sales if EU residents have to choose between paying more and paying less and disposing that difference in their stores.
If basic accounts went over to a crazy idea of 500 invent items, I would have to go. I keep mine to 5000 and under anyway, but I couldn’t drop that amount not without losing money in the form of bought inventory.
This global place which functions best when it brings people from all over the world together is splitting. I don’t want that to happen but price increases, again will contribute to Second Life becoming too expensive for the majority.
If, and only IF the serious problems, caused I am sure by the increase of hacker attacks on the client and the bad woolly coding were to be fixed. If whenever I choose to log on I can without crashing and my friends crashing, and lag was reduced then increases would be water off this ducks back. But the service is not there to warrant these increases. Improve the site before you lose too many people to other VWs. Please
October 10th, 2007 at 3:57 AM
Dear linden lab, at the moment i pay 500 dollars tier a month, if your guys are so willing to kill SL pls raise the tier asap. Then we are done with it finally! And i wish you happy playing with soon empty servers. There is a limit and your guys are on the border! Better make a statement no tier changes until at least 2009! That will hold back folks to get selling and leave.
October 10th, 2007 at 3:59 AM
Well if subscription account rates go up before you fix the sim crossing bug, I’ll be either be reverting back to the free account or dropping my account altogether. As a Sailor, pilot, horseman, and racer, I spend my day being rubber-banded into space or having my attachments end up at the crotch. But since the new Havoc is not supposed to fix that either, I guess I am being driven away from this game. And I refuse to pay more money for that kind of aggravation.
October 10th, 2007 at 4:03 AM
Weirdly my brain has just kicked in! It seems to me leaking assets for LL need to be plugged. The obvious way I guess is tier rises, but eventually like oh so many are saying…see post number 87 for the closest - that will cause more problems not solve the one in the spotlight.
Now server space costs money, there are huge blocks of yellow swarming the land, get rid of those spaces sucking up server space that isn’t being used because they aren’t being sold. Surely that is the sensible thing to do?
Open up land when people actually want it, rather than opening huge swathes of server space that just can’t handle the heat.
October 10th, 2007 at 4:04 AM
Now that EU law applies to America, will Americans still celebrate Independence Day?
October 10th, 2007 at 4:10 AM
how about dropping prices, it is getting to expensive even as a business to stay in secondlife, especially since the VAT is affecting many casual users and some regulars who can