Anti-Gambling Policy Update: FAQ
Thursday, August 9th, 2007 at 8:29 PM by: Robin LindenSince we originally announced the anti-gambling policy, we have received more questions about what it covers and how we plan to enforce it. Following is the updated FAQ, which attempts to clarify our original explanation of the policy and enforcement. We’ve added:
- more explanation about what we mean by ‘wagering’
- elaboration on what we mean by skill contests, and whether or not sweepstakes are affected
- detail about “consideration”, i.e. making or receiving a payment or thing of value in association with playing a game
- additional explanation regarding enforcement: if we discover a game or activity that we believe violates the policy we will return it to your inventory and issue a warning. If you persist in offering the game, your account will be suspended and may be terminated.
As we said initially, we can’t post a list of acceptable or unacceptable games, as it’s impossible to create an accurate and comprehensive list. If you aren’t sure, ask yourself if your game meets the criteria in the policy: Linden dollars are paid in, the outcome is random, Linden dollars or something else of value is paid out. Ultimately you’ll need to decide if you’re comfortable that your game or activity is legal within the policy.
Wagering Games FAQ
Does this policy mean that all simulated gambling in Second Life(R) is illegal? Have I broken the law by gambling in Second Life?
Our policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, in order to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and also in order to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life’s policy is to prohibit in-world gambling activities.
It always has been a basic tenet of Second Life that all Residents are legally responsible for their own activities and for complying with the laws of the local jurisdiction in which they reside. If you are violating our policy, or if you are otherwise concerned that you may be engaging in illegal gambling, you should stop.
What does “wagering” mean according to this policy?
The term “wagering” applies to any covered game or activity (i.e. game of chance, sports betting) in which a user contributes Linden dollars (or real-world money or things of value), whether into a pot, at a table game, at a house game, for purchase of a card (such as Bingo), or in any way risks Linden dollars based on whether an event may or may not occur, such as whether a team will win a sporting event, or whether Barack Obama will win the Democratic primary.
Is this a blanket ban — i.e., is this simply a ban on simulated casinos or all types of gambling?
The ban applies to all games of chance, wagering, or sports betting, where Linden dollars or their equivalents are collected and paid out. The list of games in the policy are only examples. The policy applies to objects and games whether or not they are in a building that you may call an inworld “casino.”
Does the policy apply to all games based on real-life sports activities?
The policy prohibits Sports Books or Sports Betting, including the placement or acceptance of bets on actual sporting events (or other real-world events) against a book-maker or through a betting exchange. However, the policy does not prohibit “fantasy sports” leagues if the rules and operation of those games comply with all applicable laws.
Does this policy apply to “skill contests”?
This policy only applies to wagering games that involve an element of chance. This includes, for instance, any game involving random number generation, simulated dice, cards, poker, lotteries, bingo, or any other “chance” game. Games of pure intellectual or physical skill, such as puzzles or other skill contests, may not fall under this definition.
If your game or contest does not meet the above criteria, it is not restricted under this policy, but other applicable laws and local practice may apply, and you are expected to conduct your activities in Second Life in a legal way.
Please note that this policy does not give you guidance on what your legal obligations are — as noted above, that is your responsibility to determine.
Are legal promotional sweepstakes permitted?
If you are conducting a genuine promotional sweepstakes, that complies with all applicable laws, and can demonstrate that compliance, that activity will likely be permitted.
What about games in which no Linden dollars or other “consideration” is accepted?
If entry is truly “free” (as with a promotional sweepstakes), and the game’s operator requires no “consideration” or payment from other players or entrants, then that activity will likely be permitted, assuming compliance with all other applicable laws.
What about games in which no Linden dollars or other “consideration” is paid out?
If the “payout” involves objects that are more akin to novelty objects that cannot readily be converted into Lindens, real-world currency or value, then that activity will likely be permitted.
How will you enforce this measure? How can you detect these games?
Our staff will review, investigate and respond to appropriate notices. When we discover objects or games within Second Life that meet the policy’s definition, we will remove them from Second Life. We reserve the right to suspend or terminate your account, and repeat offenders will be suspended or terminated.
What will the consequences be for those who continue to play or operate games that fall under this policy?
Any user who violates the policy or our Terms of Service more than once will be suspended, and may be terminated. Linden Lab will also comply with validly issued subpoenas in connection with law enforcement investigations and legal actions.
I live somewhere where online gambling is not illegal. Does this policy apply to me?
It does. This policy applies to all users of Second Life. However, it isn’t intended to necessarily describe what is or isn’t legal for any particular resident or in any particular place. Rather, it describes what Linden Lab believes it must do in order to maintain an atmosphere in which all applicable laws are respected, as well as U.S. credit card association and other relevant rules and guidelines.
Will this take effect immediately? Will there be reimbursement involved for virtual casino owners?
* It will take effect immediately.
* Second Life Residents are responsible for their own behavior and compliance with the policy.
* There will be no reimbursement if Linden Lab removes objects or activities that violate this policy.
These FAQs are intended to be helpful to you. They supplement but do not alter or amend the policy itself or our Terms of Service. We reserve the right to revisit this policy and any other of our policies.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:34 PM
Gambling is illegal and so is rape and murder. Why are these brutal activities tolerated in SL? Gorean worlds are rife with “slave beating posts” complete with blood.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:35 PM
Can you define ’something of value’? Is something that isn’t transferable ’something of value’?
August 9th, 2007 at 8:37 PM
What about games in which no Linden dollars or other “consideration” is paid out?
If the “payout” involves objects that are more akin to novelty objects that cannot readily be converted into Lindens, real-world currency or value, then that activity will likely be permitted.
Ok, I think it is fair to assume by this if it isn’t ‘transferable’ then it is not something of value.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:40 PM
“or whether Barack Obama will win the Democratic primary.”
WOw, or how about if a ‘virtual stock’ goes up or down? It sounds like you just banned WSE/AVIX etc.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:40 PM
1 - it’s about the money, and keeping credit card companies happy (so residents can by more $L)
2 - it’s about the money and not getting prosecuted for violation of US gaming laws (where Linden is, even if the players live where it is legal)
3 - it’s about the money where Linden will act to protect itself, but won’t say THIS or THAT game is illegal since they WANT residents to spend money anyways possible (and thus be buying more L$)
August 9th, 2007 at 8:42 PM
Good question, Charter Member. If there is no way an item can be transferred, its “value” is arguable. I’d like an official response to that question.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:42 PM
Welcome back to First Life
August 9th, 2007 at 8:43 PM
Well, I’m not very happy about the wagering policies, but at least sploders are still okay. Ova and out! d-_-b Tanner Asbrink
August 9th, 2007 at 8:44 PM
Thank you for this post!
I thought the prior post was 100% clear. But because you couldn’t mention those games, such as Slingo or Sploders, because they have no legal definition people thought you were being vague.
I hope this finally clears it up for those who refused to accept the obvious and this subject will finally die.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:47 PM
including the placement or acceptance of bets on ..other real-world events ..
Truly sad that you’d ban this, as futures market are powerful things.
You really should clarify if we’re allowed to bet on virtual stocks.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:47 PM
Thank you Lindens. I dont care about the legal questions or the moral questions related to what was called “Gambling” in SL. Most residents are pleased that this organized ripoff is gone. I’m sure the usual whiners and conspiracy mavens will be out in force once again but really people…what part of this was unclear? Unregulated and unpoliced gambling? No chance, luck or skill here. If you want gambling like that go somewhere else. Or better yet…just send me your money…it would be much easier.
Good job Lindens!
August 9th, 2007 at 8:48 PM
All the majority of people want to know is
SLINGO DMC > OK or NOT OK
SPLODERS < OK or NOT OK
its not that hard to just say SOMETHING about these two things is it?
August 9th, 2007 at 8:50 PM
So, Tringo’s out then, right? It does involve random numbers.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:50 PM
Oh well, just the f*cking U.S. of A. trying to rule my life once again.
Anything else you want to control, like what I am saying or where on earth I am going to stick my wee-wee in?
*waits for the flameing and bashing to start*
August 9th, 2007 at 8:52 PM
I am also fuzzy as to the “something of value”. Also, I am confused as to the element of skill required. I believe poker is much more of a skill game rather than a game of chance, as a good poker player can bluff a bad hand skillfully, or a bad poker player can unskillfully keep entering the pot with poor cards. Even slingo is not purely a game of chance with the skillfullness of where you place jokers. Like horesracing, if you study form, the ground, all the statiistics, then it is more a game of skillfull, considered reasoning as to why a horse should win, not just a pot luck random chance. Maybe i just don’t understand with living in a country where all gambling is legal lol.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:54 PM
Qoute”or in any way risks Linden dollars based on whether an event may or may not occur”
Dont we all pay money to be on land or even just be here and everyday is a gamble if we lose something system down you know all the rest?
August 9th, 2007 at 8:55 PM
Ah, that clears up some of the unknown. So, Sploders and raffles , (unless free) are likely to be gone, but “Lucky Chairs” are permitted. As you have to pay a sploder ball, and the outcome is based on chance, I can see how that can be considerd Wagering. However, I suppose, if you put a “free” item in a lucky chair, and require the user to pay ten dollors to win it, (which is a ripoff), then that’s still allowed xP Then again, concert tickets would fall into that catagory too. Ah well. Thanks for clearing that up. Though, Roullette, though based on chance, isn’t a gamble if you know what you’re doing.
So, no more sploders, no more raffles, (unless free, or given free items, (no Linden value)), and no more casinos.
That brings me a question. Does that mean, if you pay to play a Bingo game, it’s illegal in SL? Bingo is based purely on chance, and you win prizes or Lindens, if you win. Though Bingo is accepted world-wide, is it illegal here? If so, it’s a pity, but I won’t argue.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:58 PM
Guess you’ll just have to suck it up, JustKickAzz. You can do whatever ya want wherever you live.. just not in a US based online game. That too much for you?
Silly whiners!
August 9th, 2007 at 8:58 PM
who cares about gambling, when we can not connect ??
like now again: ” region waiting for hand shake “, and after that nothing :-(((
August 9th, 2007 at 8:59 PM
The ban applies to all games of chance, wagering, or sports betting, where Linden dollars or their equivalents are collected and paid out. The list of games in the policy are only examples. The policy applies to objects and games whether or not they are in a building that you may call an inworld “casino.”
Well, I have paid a not inconsiderable consideration to LL betting that I would be able to log in to SL and get valuable infrastructure support for my role-play.. a bet which i’m losing more often than not lately at apparently random intervals.
So it seems I should report LL to LL for running an illegal wagering game.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:00 PM
do you really think the Lindens have any idea the details of this???
like everything else - they are totally guessing.
code - guessing
infrastructure - guessing
policy - guessing
support - guessing
shiny - guessing
I still love them though
YAAAY LINDENS!!!!!!
August 9th, 2007 at 9:04 PM
There’s a measure of irony here– In compliance with credit card company requests and US law regarding online gambling, we are told on one side in the TOS that Linden Dollars (L$) have no cash value, and on the other side, now efforts are made to comply with real financial requirements when no “real” money changes hands? Lindens, I humbly request that if you are going to treat Linden currency as real in legal fronts, that you treat it as real in all fronts. I understand that you are collectively attempting to cover your butts, but… it doesn’t take much to put two and two together, to realize that you’ll call it real on one front for cover’s sakes and unreal on another to cover yourselves against users losing Lindenbucks, being scammed, or other situations. *cough*Ginko*cough*.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:05 PM
I agree Renato…the whole game is a gamble we pay into monthly some of us hoping we are able to log on others hoping that search is working so they can make a sale in their store …pfft so how hard is it to say a Sploder is NO longer allowed….a lot easier than picking up & returning the 10,000 Sploders around Second Life…
August 9th, 2007 at 9:07 PM
What about sploders that rely on people deciding who wins, and not on any random number generation?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:07 PM
So, are ’sploders legal or not?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:09 PM
GO GO POWER LINDENS (rangers)!
No more bums will be asking me for money, so they can gamble like a retard.
Since Ginko is dead… maybe LL should form a loan system of their own?
Cause they’d have power to handle user whom not paying back on time.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:11 PM
Most likely Sploaders that rely on someone to decide who wins, such as ones that decide who gets the large ammount of the pot by the last person paying it might slide. Though the rest is still decided by random. So I’m unsure on that front.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:12 PM
Ok so I have to be funny a moment I pay Linden Dollars to advertise an event at my club.. I guess I lost the GAMBLE because Second Life hasnt been functioning properly for a week…..and many people cant TP or log on ….Therefore I risked my Linden *shrugs*…..Qoute”or in any way risks Linden dollars based on whether an event may or may not occur”
August 9th, 2007 at 9:14 PM
I know you can’t put out a comprehensive list, but there are some extremely popular games that you could make a statement about. LL rode the Tringo publicity as far as it would take them when Kermitt sold the rights to the game, you can’t tell us now that you don’t know it exists. It’s complete crap to say that you can’t tell the customers what games are ok, but you will tell the enforcers of the policy which games are not ok. If the enforcers don’t have a list of what’s not allowed, they can’t enforce the policy, and without enforcement, there is no policy. We need to have the information that the enforcers will be using to make their decisions. If you don’t make clearer definitions, you will have different enforcers using different guidelines in their enforcement. You HAVE to provide a better list than you have so far.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:16 PM
Land speculation is arguably a game of chance.
Are all landholders therefore in violation of this policy?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:16 PM
The major problem I’ve discerned with all this isn’t whether online gambling is illegal, wrong or right. It has been with the obscurity of this ruling as well as the possible result, namely, “If we catch you gambling, you may be permabanned without warning.”
This causes concern among people who play games such as Slingo, enter contests and other such. I don’t think anyone minds being told, “This is a gambling issue, needs to be stopped.” It’s a whole nuther thing to suddenly find yourself banned because you crossed some indiscernable line that had no clear-cut edges.
It’s not the policy; it’s the way it was done.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:16 PM
sounds like lucky chairs are allowed. no pay in.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:17 PM
“- additional explanation regarding enforcement: if we discover a game or activity that we believe violates the policy we will return it to your inventory and issue a warning. If you persist in offering the game, your account will be suspended and may be terminated.”
“Our staff will review, investigate and respond to appropriate notices. When we discover objects or games within Second Life that meet the policy’s definition, we will remove them from Second Life. We reserve the right to suspend or terminate your account, and repeat offenders will be suspended or terminated.”
Return or Delete? The contradictions and vagueries continue!
August 9th, 2007 at 9:17 PM
well that made everything just crystal clear! I hope I don’t violate any policy. incidentally, has anyone else noticed the grid failures , lag, voice problems, inventory loss and related stuff that needs attention by Linden? Perhaps if these issues were less important than SL actually working……….
whether anyone approves of gambling or not isn’t ever the point, the point is always which freedoms will be taken from us and any restrictions seem prohibitive.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:18 PM
This whole thing is kind of stupid.
The rest of the world have or do NOT have laws against gambling, so if some SL servers are located in a country that allows gambling, US wins anyway, because the world desperatelly NEED a new dictator, period.
Haven’t learned anything with Roman Empire, Napoleon, and Hitler? Of course not. Rather than learn what NOT to do, US politicians and US rich people (like the Lindens, for instance) think they can do what the others did BETTER and in a way they will NOT fail this time.
How stupid of them!! Gambling made them earn MORE, but since they had to share the wealth with users, they banned gambling!!
But while they walk in expensive suits and cars with our money, our stuff keeps disappearing from our inventory. Refunds? For US, simple humble mortals?! Of couse not. Buy more feed Lindens’ pockets a little more!!
When did “Game” become the same as Theft?… When did we had to pay abusive prices — and SUFFER with all these problems — for quality amusement?
I won’t think anymore. I never gamble anyway. None of my business. Im just being solidary. heh.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:18 PM
Ok so if sploders are not aloud why are people still selling them, and if the splode splodes Orbs that is not random it is skill so there for allowed.
SL is an independent state/world in the virtual world what chance has it got if it follows every law on earth.
You can get arrested for impersonating a police officer her so why arn’t they banning police costumes ?
Grrrrrrr
August 9th, 2007 at 9:20 PM
Stock price is not determind by random number or chance, price is determind by sellers and buyers based on company performance. IF stock trading is ban, then currency trading is ban also , including LindeX
If Tringo is go, then it is really sad.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:24 PM
I appreciate the clarification, especially now that I can be confident that the tournaments I regularly participate in or sponsor - which require no entry fee and are entirely skill-based combat, though they do award prizes - are not prohibited under the new policy.
Thank you, Linden Lab.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:26 PM
@25 - Please… I can go to the local real-life party store or costume store and get police uniforms… Much more is needed to impersonate an officer.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:27 PM
I think rigged games - in which the outcome is NOT random, simply opaque, may still be ok? lol. But really folks, it seems to me the casino’s were a fantastic centre for social interraction - the heart of SL. So - clever people - lets come up with an altenative, which need not neccessarily involve losing money. Anyone for dance competitions? Race around SL? Ideas….?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:30 PM
- detail about “consideration”, i.e. making or receiving a payment or thing of value in association with playing a game
You’ll have to define “thing of value” eventually - is it limited to stuff that can be resold? Or just has a high price tag?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:32 PM
I think people are growing tired of the game that is Linden Labs.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:33 PM
@ renato, i agree with you. sl is a gamble, every day the same.
let´s bet: i bet 1000 linden that this weekend we will have the same problems like every day
August 9th, 2007 at 9:33 PM
Well, it’s pretty much up to Linden Lab to decide what shd or shd not be allowed on their servers. Just because they tolerate some activity which might be illegal but which doesn’t cause problems for the company, that doesn’t mean they DO have to tolerate other illegal actvity which DOES cause problems.
But the gambling ban troubles me… it blows a huge hole in the SL economy. And I am not sure if any economy, Real Life or virtual, can exist without some form of wagering.
(Actually the problem is not that gambling is illegal in the USA… it’s most definitely legal in the USA… it’s just a highly regulated monopoly. It’s illegal in the USA only in the same sense that professional athletes competing in the Olympics is illegal. We might be better off it gambling was regarded the same way in the USA as prostitution: prostitution is technically illegal everywhere but in parts of Nevada… but is tolerated just about everywhere as long as no actual physical contact is involved.)
August 9th, 2007 at 9:33 PM
Wow they are explaining the issue! Alot of if whats and Or in this posting from Robin.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:34 PM
I think that if I pay for a premium membership in SL and expect to get my money’s worth, I must be gambling. So to avoid breaking your silly-a**ed rules, I will be a non-paying resident.
I don’t understand how you candone slavery and murder in SL and act like the morals police when it comes to lesser U.S. crimes…it’s all fantasy. Get over it or sell the company to someone who understands that.
Repeat to yourself….it’s only a game….it’s only a game…it;s only a game.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:34 PM
Essentially…the policy is just to keep in line with recently passed United States Law that prohibits online gambling/games of chance.
It’s unfortunate that so many in the US (and in the world) feel that Second Life is a “game” owned by Linden Labs rather than a “platform” more akin to the internet…
…if it were recognized as a type of internet platform, and LL was recognized as an ISP (as it should be)…there would be protections in order and gambling would not necessarily be illegal for non-US citizens. (And LL wouldn’t have to enforce the policy)
August 9th, 2007 at 9:35 PM
LINDIN LABS:
IF YOU READ THIS, PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK! YOUVE JUST TAKEN ONE STEP TOWARDS LISTENING TO YOUR CLIENTS!
FORGET TRYING TO FIX PEOPLE! FIX SL! LOG IN ON A NORMAL COMPUTER AND LOOK AT THE C**P WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH EVERY DAY!
AND FIX SUPPORT! no mail, no phone, no inworld, heck there isnt even email support!
August 9th, 2007 at 9:37 PM
I am not a gambler, except will Second Life ever return to a playable enterprise.
This post is just another example of the Linden lack of strength to make a solid statement. It is left to you to determine if it falls within the guidelines. Well you are the controlling body, Linden’s, time to set out some hard rules, you have the power but it seems you wish to remain ambiguous. Well the economy is ambiguous right now thanks to the mess created by the latest greatest update which has virtually destroyed the game so noobs can yowl at each other.
Thanks
August 9th, 2007 at 9:37 PM
I would also like a definitive answer regarding sploders.
Can it be considered wagering when the object in question merely returns money that has has been paid into it, albeit redistributed?
Can it be considered wagering when you know you will be paid by the object, you just aren’t sure exactly how much?
Having read and re-read both relevant blog posts, it is my considered opinion that the policy concerns itself only with situations where one would pay into something with no guarantee of any return whatsoever.
This is not the case with sploders as I noted above, but a definitive answer would be appreciated.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:37 PM
No ’sploders aren’t legal. The key word here is “risk”. Sure everyone “wins” with ’sploders (those who pay in) but you RISK losing more than what you paid in.
Lucky Chairs are legal considering there is no risk involved (you don’t pay to play, the randomness of the winner is simply using a letter of your name and your ability to sit down).
Don’t confuse the word “random” with “risk”.
@ 21. I disagree. it’s common sense really. Look at the transaction being made. Are you risking losing either L$ or something of value to play on any single turn?
@4. The ability to transfer an object has no bearing. I could send you a -mod -trans certificate equal to L$5000 where all you have to do is show it to me to receive your Lindens. Read the “What about games in which no Linden dollars or other “consideration” is paid out?” section again.
Thank you Robin.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:39 PM
…”Linden dollars or something else of value is paid out.”
interesting.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:39 PM
Great TY for taking away my SL. I was a productive member of SL. I earned above average income by Hosting Gaming events At Club Extreme. Now in one fell swoop LL has unemployed hundreds maybe thousands of Players. I always paid my own way in SL . Now I can’t shop or otherwise take part in the economy of SL. TY Chilly Charlton and BB Boffin, and all Extreme for being there for me .. I will probably quit SL all together .. OFF TO HIPIHI!!! (thier servers are in China!!!!!!!)currently under beta testing.. Come on in ppl!
August 9th, 2007 at 9:40 PM
BTW….this thread is the first of several designed to push the problems caused by adding VOICE to the grid off the log-in page…..so they can announce their next shiney: PRETTY SKYS!
August 9th, 2007 at 9:41 PM
sploders allowed or not? That was not explain and why are they still used?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:42 PM
what happens if i buy l$ dollars at a low price and sell them at a higher price is that betting ?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:42 PM
I really don’t understand this whole policy. On one hand, Linden Labs persists that Linden dollars and virtual property have no inherent value. On the other hand, we can’t gamble Linden dollars or virtual property because they have value. Can anyone explain this?
Linden Lab has argued that the Linden dollar and virtual property have no value in court! Let’s get real, people. I’m not a gambler, but the double standard is idiocy to me.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:43 PM
wow killing the sl econ huh Robin? geeze lol I bet sex is next o damn I cant bet..o hell I’ll do it anyway
August 9th, 2007 at 9:43 PM
“Fractal Mandala Says:
August 9th, 2007 at 8:50 PM PDT
So, Tringo’s out then, right? It does involve random numbers.”
@ Fractal:
Tringo deals with shapes, not numbers. It’s a game of skill, like Tetris.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:44 PM
Oh wait I Forgot , I could earn L$ by bieng a F&&%% Whore!! HMMM seems that prostitution is illegal in the US too.. Like I would even consider stooping as low as those escorts or those who use them..(have to climb 3 flights to see the sewer) Yes LL will deem this as off topic when in all SL-ality* it is all to relavent!
August 9th, 2007 at 9:46 PM
@ Cliff not all Sploders pay back less than given for instance “some” are set to pay back the minimum allowed to put in Example:to play you pay 10L and you are guaranteed to get back 10L or more so if you choose to put more than 10L in that would be generous but when it splodes you are definately going to get your 10L back…..I dont think that is gambling or illegal at all but thats just me sometimes nice people come along and put extra cash in just to help the Noob’s out ..
August 9th, 2007 at 9:47 PM
“It always has been a basic tenet of Second Life that all Residents are legally responsible for their own activities and for complying with the laws of the local jurisdiction in which they reside. If you are violating our policy, or if you are otherwise concerned that you may be engaging in illegal gambling, you should stop.”
Someone explain this part. So if your breaking rules then LL will not do anything? And lets this up to you instead? Anyone see any problems in this statement from Robin?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:47 PM
Interesting how this has been handled, Lindens, considering your own TOS (excerpted below):
LL TOS 1.2:
1.2 Linden Lab is a service provider, which means, among other things, that Linden Lab does not control various aspects of the Service.
1.4 Second Life “currency” is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab’s discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.
AND
1.5 Second Life offers an exchange, called LindeX, for the trading of Linden Dollars, which uses the terms “buy” and “sell” to indicate the transfer of license rights to use Linden Dollars. Use and regulation of LindeX is at Linden Lab’s sole discretion.
If you read these three sections in their entirety, it’s fairly clear that this decision on in-game wagering violates 1.2. As for 1.4 and 1.5, your policy indicates that Lindens have no persistant value in real-world dollars. In what country is it illegal to gamble with what amounts to “virtual points?”
I would suggest that this policy is the result of an overly-cautious panel of LL attorneys. Unfortunately by implementing it, you may be setting yourself up for a different type of lawsuit by demonstrating that the company believes that Lindens DO have an actual cash value. I suggest you reconsider your position and take one side or the other.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:50 PM
This is just utterly sad. I don’t even gamble, but I find this whole thing to be extremely American. (The American Government, not American people) (Greedy, and self-serving and not caring about the overall freedom of users, especially when they dump money into the game and then can’t even use it because it is down and erroneous so often.) The people who pay monthly should have linden payed to them for every hour they can’t log on. This is the kind of stuff that gets people to start reverse engineering games and creating private servers. This greatly disappoints me as part of the gaming community and I used to stand up for linden labs when people bashed, them, but now I feel no need to do so. They were right, I was wrong.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:51 PM
@43 Not all not all Sploders pay back less ? Well they ones i seen take any where from 30% to 50%. 50% being Aveage take. If owners sets Sploders pay to give out the same amount back. Then its not gambling. As it stands now Sploders pay back less are still happening which means its gambling,
August 9th, 2007 at 9:54 PM
I’ll try to post this again without LL blocking it…Events of the last couple of weeks have proven that the ‘LINDEN DOLLAR’ is now ‘COLD HARD CASH’ so now all rules have changed.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:55 PM
Wyald, the problems are NOT being caused by Voice. Full Stop.
Care to guess what the heart of it really is?
Do we remember this (pardon if it doesn’t show up as a link)? http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/06/25/dia-de-la-liberacion-and-het-grid/
Gee …. Beta testing software on parts of the main grid … Sounds to me like that would cause a fair number of problems if not implemented properly.
Try not to jump to conclusions in the future.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:55 PM
Wonder how many new escorts there will be in SL this upcoming week?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:57 PM
they are a lot of casino’s in second life still running ,if you shut them down, you will lose a lot of people who pay the 9.95 a month figure it out at the linden labs on how much that will be?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:58 PM
lmfao “Thabiggdogg” I have your answer..none cause they all have websites now and porn and sell virtual sex out of SL using cams ,phones etc while still using the Second Life name …hmm is that illegal??
August 9th, 2007 at 10:00 PM
LL.. Please give a definative ruling on XPloders. You have skirted this one question for too long… Either YES.. they can stay or NO they cannot. Why do you continue to refuse to answer this one question?
August 9th, 2007 at 10:01 PM
*** As for 1.4 and 1.5, your policy indicates that Lindens have no persistant value in real-world dollars. ***
They do no such thing. 1.4 says they aren’t redeemable BY LINDEN LAB. Whether or not they have value is in fact not even under Linden’s control. If you can exchange them for something of worth, they have worth.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:01 PM
@14 Selkit: I agree with you. Linden Lab needs to stop playing chameleon in regards to the value, or non value, of the L$ as a currency.
As for the whiners and America bashers. Go play somewhere else or shut up. You are lucky the U.S. Government allows systems like Second Life to be open to participants outside the US. It’s pretty sad when you are so addicted to gambling that you have to act this immature.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:01 PM
Wonders how many places that had games converted themselves into adult sex clubs?
LL can we have a nice graph on this stat please?
August 9th, 2007 at 10:03 PM
As I understand it “games of chance” covers games where there is no skill involved. Craps would be a good case. With properly balanced dice, how you throw them and where you throw them won’t change the outcome, it’s still random. Poker in the real world has an element of skill to it, but everyone on SL has an invincible poker face which essentially removes that element. Tringo, I would judge has a skill element. While the pieces are chosen in a random order, it’s up to you to fit them all together on the board. But then I’m taking LL’s stance as “not being legal counsel, don’t quote me.”
If there are anymore questions about what this covers though, I think it’s best summed up as such:
If your payoff is determined by events outside of your control, as in , it’s illegal. If your actions are directly involved in the outcome, such as proper timing or accuracy with throwing an object, it’s legal.
—
I’m not to keen on this either folks, I think it’s stupid that the US can dictate how I live my life (real or virtual) in another country. But remember folks, pinball machines were banned for being a gambling device in the US some 50 or 60 years ago! It wasn’t until they added the paddles that it became a game of skill and it was legal for them to pay out money (yes, believe it or not, the first pinball machines did pay out). I feel it’s only a matter of time before the rest of the world collectively tells the US to STFU and leave them to dictate their own policies.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:03 PM
Come on Robin Tell your LL cohorts to be honest!!! “In an effort to not over tax our old servers, and so as not to have to spend rl us dollars for new ones Gambling is hereby abolished!! So that we may present you with SL Voice! ” translation : we get rid of casino scripts running in order to free up servers to handle voice! Even though we are aware that The Voice rollout is very premature!!
August 9th, 2007 at 10:03 PM
OK..so you tell us about the new gambeling rules, but you don’t bother to tell us not to buy anything because it won’t show up in your inventory. Very nice..thank you.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:04 PM
Gambling is not illegal in the USA…. online gambling is however. I think it’s just an easy blanket way for them to keep people in areas where it is illegal from gambling. Gambling is decided by local government, not federal.
I’m going to miss sploders though
August 9th, 2007 at 10:05 PM
Can’t wait for HALO 3 to come out!!!
August 9th, 2007 at 10:06 PM
PUES SI YA NO VA A AVER SPLODERS DONDE GANABA ALGO PARA PASARLA… Y PONDRAN MAS PRIBICIONES.. PUES…. A CHINGAR A SU MADRE A TODOS LOS LINDENLABS. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 9th, 2007 at 10:06 PM
#44, what it means is that they are basicly saying “Even if we don’t specifically outlaw something in OUR rules, real life restrictions always trump our permissions.
IE, “just because we allowed gambling, doesn’t mean it was ever ok, and you should have known that.”
August 9th, 2007 at 10:06 PM
what ever happen to the sims games?
August 9th, 2007 at 10:06 PM
“Rather, in order to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and also in order to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life’s policy is to prohibit in-world gambling activities.” - generally applicable in the US only, of course, every major bookmaker where I am has a website I can bet on, using my credit card, and I can buy my National Lottery ticket online, using a credit card.
You recently avertised for staff in Brighton, UK - if you have servers based there, will non-US citizens be able to gamble in sims based there?
The reason I am interested in this issue is not that I want to gamble, but when I started SL I got started earning by playing the SLingo machines (using skill to maximize my chances of winning) and learned how to enjoy socialising in group SLingo. To have these now outlawed strikes me as a loss to the community (camping chairs on the other hand seem to be still accepted, and the most boring and anti-social of activites in SL!).
There are some Internationally acepeted laws concerning some behaviours (randomly killing people for instance, piracy or fraud), however gambling is not covered.
Our World, Our Imagination
August 9th, 2007 at 10:07 PM
to those who keep asking why sploders are still around if illegal, It’s because Linden Lab doesn’t have a magic “kill all the sploders” button. They don’t have the manpower to go and remove them all. But rest assured, if someone reports the sploder via an AR, they will come remove it, when they get time, at some indetermiate point in the future, maybe, if they have nothing else pressing to do.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:08 PM
@43. Zoey, if the equipment used allows for an element of risk, then it’s a gambling machine.
lol @ comparing prostitution to gambling. Prostitution requires a person to act (or have the intent). No it’s not illegal in SL because the laws in the US don’t restrict that type of simulated activity (why do you think 900 numbers are legal). Isn’t paid phonenookie a form of prostitution as well?. So if you’re up at 3am watching TV and you hear a catchy tune with the lyrics “Pick up the phone” ensure you call your local FBI office.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:11 PM
I take a gamble everyday anymore just hoping SL software works and gamble on the thought it will get fixed. I gamble that SL doesn’t loose more of my inventory and then claim they are not responsible for the value. I gamble everyday that search works so people can buy my land before I have to more more “worthless/worth something” linden value tiers. I gamble that SL will not come out with more stupid nonfunctioning addons when they can not resolve the original software issues. How many days in the last week has SL been down in some way. I’d “bet” or “wager” more than it’s been up. Not too long ago the grid was down “you all remember” on A Saturday and LL said “well we’ll fix it this coming Monday”. I gamble when I use online help that within two hours I’ll talk to a real person.
So the question is?
Is using SL software not “gambling” in itself?
August 9th, 2007 at 10:12 PM
How about a refund for the lack of good code skills and poor planing?
#52 Neural, thats very unamerican for you to make a statement like this,
August 9th, 2007 at 10:13 PM
#61
No, it isn’t. It wasn’t the last 92342384728937 times someone had that “clever” idea, either, and it won’t be right the 92342384728939th time either.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:13 PM
@61 “Is using SL software not “gambling” in itself?”
Only if you get something of worth from it :op
August 9th, 2007 at 10:14 PM
Gambling on whether a server works or don’t work must not be a gamble. Anyone want to wager on whether search will work Friday at 12PM SL time? I will only accept monopoly money on this wager.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:14 PM
@ Cliff I was asking if it was legal for them to use SL’s name in reference to there websites…..
August 9th, 2007 at 10:14 PM
how about giving a definate answer to “slingo” “tringo” enought with the run around
August 9th, 2007 at 10:15 PM
Sploders are not allowed. But LL is lazy to get rid of them that makes sence.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:17 PM
@66 Sorry Zoey, that (prostitution reference) was a general comment not directed at you.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:17 PM
correction - the original sploder systems are no longer allowed. I’ve seen a sploder that relies on the skill of those who put into it to determine who gets what payout.
No random number generator there. No element of chance. At minimum you get back what you put into it.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:19 PM
What about contests where you win money? where you don’t pay? is that banned now too?
By what I’m reading, hippiepay could be banned too, through a stretch anyway.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:20 PM
How did Prostitution get in this? Its about gambling not Prostitution?
Where does it say in this blog or any where LL is ridding itself of Prostitution?
August 9th, 2007 at 10:20 PM
The way I read the rules… there has to be a wager to start.. no wager, don’t worry about anything else. it’s legal then.
okay so if there is a wager then there also has to be: payout in lindens or RL currency or thing of value.. meaning a prim has no RL value. An object has no RL value. You can give someone a prim which has no value. Even if they decide to sell it, then and only then does it have value when it’s being set for sale, not when it was given to the “winner.” And also random number generation or chance, which the new anti-sploders I think could be considered chance
(they are based on the last person who pays wins the sploder, the rest get split evenly the rest of the pot). Isn’t that a game of chance then that they will be the last one? still involves a wager and payout in lindens.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:23 PM
@ 69
In sploders in general, the only way you get minimum back that I have seen is that the starting wager is L$5 and the least the sploder pays out is L$5. I haven’t tried those new sploders so I don’t know about them exactly. Someone needs to define a game of chance for sure I think.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:23 PM
ok lets ban Prostitution,contests and totally make things PG…….WAIT thats There.com………..
August 9th, 2007 at 10:24 PM
I dont know why a lot of people are saying that the sex industry and escorts will be next, I really don’t. Many of you have even come close in some of these comments, but I still think a lot havnt realised where the next target will be. Its finance and banking. Banks and Stock markets involve big real world money (much more than the sex industry) and are regulated. Those regulators, already tasting blood from this win, will want more, and will continue to put pressure on SL, and LL will continue to cave.
I think its about time LL revised the SL marketing slogan “Your World, Your Imagination” as it clearly no longer applies - neither does the TOS which is also at odds with this policy in SO many ways.
Lindens, you’ve opened pandoras box. Everything changes from here on and the first thing you must do is line all of your ducks up in a row - get the marketing, the policy, and the TOS in agreement. Make up your minds… Do $L have value or not? Do you control aspects of the game, or not? With so much money going through the Lindex, is it even a game? Im sure some full time SL business owners would argue that it is not.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:25 PM
Solar that is within the rules. But many are still out there doing thr max take from Payin @ 50…….
August 9th, 2007 at 10:26 PM
#71
good chance she isn`t female lol
August 9th, 2007 at 10:27 PM
quit your damn whining. gambling in sl was a plague, it caused horrid lag and onslaughts of newbs who panhandled for linden. LL owns the game or platform or whatever, so guess what? they can do whatever they damn well please. and those who complain about grid being faulty, go outside, its nice out. jesus people
August 9th, 2007 at 10:27 PM
this all to much for me ,i’m getting me a second life hooker ,and doing her and go to bed.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:27 PM
It wouldn’t be hard to establish in a court of law that the Linden dollar has real dollar value. Simply compare it to a poker chip.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:28 PM
really I think Slingo, or dmc as it is called now to not confuse it with the bingo game useing words, can fall through the cracks if the owner sets it to be free to play, thus the only pot being there is there because someone chooses to pay.
Yes there is a chance, yes you -can- pay and gamble and loose, but it is not required to, you can also pay nothing and still win. given their references to bingo they were trying to say slingo didn’t pass, yet I still see that one loophole
August 9th, 2007 at 10:32 PM
This is a comment I have just added to my support desk ticket that I submitted 7 days ago (counting the weekend). (ticket #XXXXXXXXXXX = “Work in Progress”
I appeal too you because I feel it might be a situation where this is a “no touch subject”, people are afraid to address. I assure you that is not the case and I feel LL can profit greatly by the addition of our products to SL. I implore you to take the few minutes it will take to read my comment below and hopefully the ticket.
TIA
hiro Voss
<<<<>>>
Is it a “no one wants to touch this ticket with a ten foot pole” situation here or is this the the LL strategy for dealing with the gambling issue. Ignore all tickets associated.
I can assure you the games we have are not gambling! I just don’t want to put in alot of effort or time into this if the game just ends up being put into the category of gambling because no one wants to take the time to just look at it. It would be a great shame for LL being that these games are posed to take over for the gambling games for a great many venue owners and at least parcially fill the void that will be left once the gambling games go away.
This is a win win for you guys, you get to satiate a lot of those people who are screaming right now (i.e. club owners and mall owner) and that are or are anticipating to be hit hard by the disappearing of the sploders and casino games and have a very successful example of a non-gambling venture in world.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:34 PM
This new “feature” should be labelled: Linden Labs decide to illegally squash the freedom of its digital citizens
but should have read:
Linden Labs moves all hts servers to Canada in a move to preserve the freedom of its digital citizens.
The realty is: Linden Labs as never managed SL. Linden Labs is the living proof that a great idea can still make money even if you have no idea of any kind of what your doing and most importen of all Listning to your PAYING customers requests to make sure to totally ignore envery single one of them.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:40 PM
@48. No rules have changed. LL will not give you cash for lindins you have. Yu must use lindeX. And besides, they have no obligation to do so. They hold the right to withholed your L$.
@61. Oh really? Lucky Chairs have an Element of Risk. Yet they aren’t gambling. xP
@all. Before you post, make sure you understand one thing… Sl, is NOT reality, and is like Furcadia, or ToonTown. It’s a service. They have no obligation to keep it running, they choose to do so. SL is NOT, nor will it ever be, reality, as we know it. It may become VR, and require a VR headset for full oimmersion, but it will still be qa service. If you are angry because you can’t gamblle, WHY? Addiction to gambling is unhealthy, as is any addiction. Sure, we all spend money and risk loss of it all if LL screws up, but that is in the TOS. We all agreed that LL has no liability as to what happens when we use the service. If we lpose cash, it was our choice to buy it in the first place. What you see is what you get. If you don’t like it, then stop paying for it. Go back to free accounts. You will no longer havre to worry about money going down the drain.
As for me, I commend LL for working their butts off to make SL a better place. Sure they aren’t perfect, but if you want perfection, you’re in the wrong place.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:41 PM
So, it sounds like you can’t even enforce it because even YOU don’t know what’s allowed and what’s not….VERY PATHETIC!
August 9th, 2007 at 10:43 PM
Lane, others from outside the U.S. who are bitching about Linden Labs being located in the U.S. and following U.S. laws, I suggest you try out the version of SL that was developed and is running in Italy, or Ethiopia, or Lichtenstein. Then you will only have to follow those laws.
Oh… there isn’t one? Then how about stopping the bitching and carry on. You knew this was a U.S. based game when you signed up.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:44 PM
For You Tringo folks out there
TRINGO IS COOL alltho the pices are chosen randomly EVERY ONE gets the same pice and how each person uses that pice is purly skill based
Alltho slingo is dead now
slego should be ok to…
August 9th, 2007 at 10:46 PM
100% support for that move by Linden Labs (to ban gambling).
My very first experience in SL (looking for Lindens) was just ugly and frustrating, and I was about to quit after just some hours. However there are so much interesting things to do in SL, game, science, models, poetry, friendship, music, nature, etc.
Next in line, prostitution and porn? 100% support again. That would be a real relief too, and would enhance ten fold the repute of SL.
Just that, please Linden Labs, just don’t go too far, do not make of SL some puritan place which would be “100% PG”. Nudity, sex and love are normal parts of life, so that they should remain in the game, for those interested, provided of course it is in suitable mature places.
With my opinion SL should be safe enough so that teens (less than 1
could be allowed in the main PG sims. There is still some work ahead to achieve this, but again I encourage LL to do so.
welcome newbies in our gambling free SL!
August 9th, 2007 at 10:50 PM
What really upsets me about this thread is those people who are “asking” for clarification… “asking” to be regulated. LL already stuck their nose where they said they wouldn’t, and now you’re asking for more. Let is go, already. It’s done! The more you ask for regulation, the more they will regulate.
Everybody knows that Lindens have a real world value. The term “transfer of license rights” is just a fancy way of saying currency exchange. Many people have made (and lost) a lot of real world money because of this. Pointing out the flaws in their TOS does nothing to change that.
@ #73 Keiko Rau:I couldn’t have said it better.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:50 PM
SL is simply doing what they need to, per their attorney’s advice, and based on recent legislation, to make sure they remain viable instead of allowing internet gambling to shut down everything on SL when Alberto Gonzales, the Attorney General, decides to charge Linden Labs’ principals with felonys for violating this insane law.
If you want to direct your frustration to someone, please write to your U.S. representatives in Congress. Better yet, consider voting for someone who has NEVER voted to regulate the internet, Ron Paul. He is running for President and holds libertarian principles which means he respects individual liberties. You might also consider registering, voting and becoming a member in the Libertarian Party.
If you don’t decide to support liberty at the polling place, you shouldn’t be complaining when politicians who collect contributions from Nevada and Indian casinos outlaw their competition and the numerous other protectionist laws out there.
Leebert “E” Humby
August 9th, 2007 at 10:51 PM
Actually the explanation is good. Lindex is now illegal for sure by their own revised definition.
Lindens may be exchanged for something of value. Dollars. (well the dollar still has SOME value)
I can buy dollars to buy Lindens on the Lindex and hold them.
If by chance (circumstances beyond my control) the exchange rate between Lindens and dollars changes, then I RISK losing items of value (fewer dollars in exchange) or WIN items of move value, Lindens which may be exchanged for dollars.
The above scenario exactly fits the anti-gamling explanation of Linden Labs above.
Next to come in regulated SL activity (after sex and escort services), flying! Every country regulates who can fly. So unregulated flight in SL is obviously violating more laws than gambling.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:51 PM
You know, I just noticed something interesting:
<The term “wagering” applies to any covered game or activity
(that means pretty much anything in SL)
pretty wide, again…
…such as whether a particular region will be online and functioning properly for a significant proportion of time.
I submit that by this definition, PAYING TIER TO LINDEN LABS IS ARGUABLY WAGERING.
Go ahead, try and shoot that one down.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:53 PM
Please Please Please!
Stop asking about sploders. Read the blog and you will see…SPLODERS FIT THE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED!
Also, will those of you that like to bring up the prostitution issue…the argument is absolutely ridiculous. There is no real sex in SL. It is NOT prostitution!
Those of you who just want to bash the US. Please encourage someone in your country to create an equivalent to SL. If you hate the US so much and SL’s policies then just stop logging on.
Sigh.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:55 PM
hey, no fair mutilating my quotes
Take 2:
**The term “wagering” applies to any covered game or activity (i.e. game of chance, sports betting) in which a user contributes Linden dollars (or real-world money or things of value)**
(that means pretty much anything in SL)
**or in any way risks Linden dollars**
(pretty wide, again)
**based on whether an event may or may not occur, such as . . .**
. . . such as whether a particular region will be online and functioning properly for a significant proportion of time.
I submit that by this definition, PAYING TIER TO LINDEN LABS IS ARGUABLY WAGERING.
Go ahead, try and shoot that one down.