Wagering In Second Life: New Policy
Wednesday, July 25th, 2007 at 4:05 PM by: Robin Linden[UPDATE: Wednesday, July 25 4:47PM PDT] For those of you who find logging into the Knowledge Base to be sort of kludgy (and I know it is — we’ll find a better way!), I’ve pasted the text of the policy and FAQ below.
Several months ago we discussed the issue of gambling in Second Life (R) in a blog post, and at that time we let you know that we would no longer accept any classified ads, place listings, or event listings that appear to relate to simulated casino activity.
While Linden Lab does not offer an online gambling service, Linden Lab and Second Life Residents must comply with state and federal laws applicable to regulated online gambling, even when both operators and players of the games reside outside of the US. And, because there are a variety of conflicting gambling regulations around the world we have chosen to restrict gambling in Second Life as described in a revised policy which is posted in the Knowledge Base under “Policy Regarding Wagering in Second Life”.
As you review this new policy, please remember that Resident compliance with real world laws has always been an integral part of our Terms of Service. We appreciate your cooperation with this policy, and your understanding that we believe this action is in the best interest of providing a successful Second Life service. Because this is an evolving area of law, we may continue to adjust and clarify this policy as we receive feedback from the community and from legal authorities, or as new regulations, industry practices and technology solutions come into effect.
Policy
It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life (R) environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:
(1) (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
AND
(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.
This includes (but is not limited to), for example, Casino Games such as:
o Baccarat
o Blackjack
o Craps
o Faro
o Keno
o Pachinko
o Pai Gow
o Poker
o Roulette
o Sic Bo
o Slot machines
It also includes Sports Books or Sports Betting, including the placing of bets on actual sporting events against a book-maker or through a betting exchange.
Linden Lab will actively enforce this policy. If we discover gambling activities that violate the policy, we will remove all related objects from the inworld environment, may suspend or terminate the accounts of residents involved without refund or payment, and may report any relevant details, including user information, to authorities and financial institutions.
Wagering Games FAQ
1. Does this policy mean that all simulated gambling in Second Life(R) is illegal? Have I broken the law by gambling in Second Life? Can there be any retroactive consequences?
Linden Lab’s policy is not intended to identify which gambling activities may be legal where you live, and we cannot provide legal advice to you. Because gambling activities may be controlled by the law where the bettor lives in some places, and in others affect the operators of wagering games, we have decided to take a broader approach by prohibiting all games that meet the criteria in our policy.
It has been a basic tenet of Second Life that all Residents are legally responsible for their own activities and for complying with the laws of the local jurisdiction in which they reside. If you are violating our policy, or if you are otherwise concerned that you may be engaging in illegal gambling, you should stop.
2. Is this a blanket ban — i.e. is this simply a ban on simulated casinos or all types of gambling?
The wagering games described in the policy will not be allowed in Second Life. It applies to objects and games whether or not they are in a building that you may call an inworld “casino.”
3. What kind of wagering games are affected?
The policy applies to gambling games which:
(1) (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
AND
(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.
4. Does the policy apply to all games based on real-life sports activities?
The policy prohibits Sports Books or Sports Betting, including the placing of bets on actual sporting events against a book-maker or through a betting exchange. However, the policy does not prohibit “fantasy sports” leagues if the rules and operation of those games comply with all applicable laws.
5. Does this policy apply to “skill contests?”
This policy only applies to wagering games that meet the criteria listed above. If your game or contest does not meet the above criteria, it is not restricted under this policy, but applicable laws and local practice may impose additional requirements on you. This policy does not give you guidance on what your legal obligations are – as noted above, that is your responsibility to determine.
6. How will you enforce this measure? How can you detect these games?
Our staff will review, investigate and respond to appropriate notices. We may retain additional staff or services to conduct this activity. When we discover objects or games within Second Life that meet the policy’s definition, we will remove them from Second Life.
7. What will the consequences be for those who continue to play or operate games that fall under this policy?
Any user who consistently violates the policy or our Terms of Service will be suspended, and may be terminated. Linden Lab may also comply with validly issued subpoenas in connection with law enforcement investigations and legal actions.
8. I live somewhere where online gambling is not illegal. Does this policy apply to me?
This policy applies to all use of Second Life. It isn’t intended to describe what is or isn’t legal for any particular resident or in any particular place. It describes what Linden Lab believes is appropriate to maintain its business requirements and to operate Second Life.
9. Will this take effect immediately? How will it work procedurally to shut down? Will there be reimbursement involved for virtual casino owners?
* It will take effect immediately.
* Second Life Residents are responsible for their own behavior and compliance with the policy.
* There will be no reimbursement if Linden Lab removes objects or activities that violate this policy.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:10 PM
What I don’t understand is why various forms of usury (like gigantic credit card interest rates and fees) are legal, and gambling is against the law…
I’m no fan of gambling, but I am a fan of freedom. I don’t think people should be forbidden from gambling if they really want to waste their money on it.
But I understand Second Life has to comply with the law. I think it’s the law that’s wrong.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:12 PM
Er, um, well, actually, I know so little about gambling I’m not sure if it’s outright illegal or not… sorry if I made any factual errors above.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:13 PM
It would be nice if the link to the new policy actually worked - I wonder what it says there?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:14 PM
Uhoh, I hate to say it, but I think the feds are really starting to close in on SL. Next we will be reporting our SL income, and pay taxes on what we buy and sell here.
I dont like it LL, I think you should begin plans to move your servers to an island somewhere…where there are limited or no laws that would inflict SL freedoms.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:15 PM
So… does this mean the slot machine I own is completely useless?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:16 PM
Under the policies broad definitions of wagering, WSE should be shut down on SL since playing a virtual stock market is nothing more than wagering on a game of chance
July 25th, 2007 at 4:16 PM
How about the actual link or an abstract? Logging in to support system to SEARCH Knowledge Base is cumbersome at least!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:19 PM
You won’t tell us that this will be the SL’s normal way of stability now? After the power outage the lag has become even worse…
July 25th, 2007 at 4:19 PM
God knows what the policy is now; the link is invalid and basically leads you to a nothing page.
>> Apollia Pirandello Says: What I don’t understand is why various forms of usury (like gigantic credit card interest rates and fees) are legal, and gambling is against the law
Ah, you see, it’s only illegal in countries such as Canada and America, where government hides behind moral blithering to make sure that gambling only happens when the governments get to pocket most of the money. And that’s about it in a nut shell. They’re not adverse to gambling profits; in fact, they’re addicted to them. That’s why they crack down so hard when someone tries to bypass them or muscle in on their turf.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:19 PM
Also say goodbye to sploder balls and raffle balls.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:20 PM
Odd, LL seems to be censoring my attempt to provide a quote of the policy. I guess you are just out of luck.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:21 PM
The policy is unclear on “pot” games, like Tringo, Slingo, etc. There is no payout over and above what has been contributed to the pot. So are these types of games a violation of the policy?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:21 PM
Goodbye gambling and kahzhinoes, no matter where you live.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:21 PM
I wonder if the next hit will be on us escorts, put that prostitution is, too, illegal in the USA.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:24 PM
When you go to the support page and login scroll down to the Most Recent Topics section. It is the first one.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:25 PM
Found the policy:
Policy Regarding Wagering in Second Life
It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life© environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:
(1) (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events, AND
(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.
This includes (but is not limited to), for example, Casino Games such as:
o Baccarat
o Blackjack
o Craps
o Faro
o Keno
o Pachinko
o Pai Gow
o Poker
o Roulette
o Sic Bo
o Slot machines
It also includes Sports Books or Sports Betting, including the placing of bets on actual sporting events against a book-maker or through a betting exchange.
Linden Lab will actively enforce this policy. If we discover gambling activities that violate the policy, we will remove all related objects from the inworld environment, may suspend or terminate the accounts of residents involved without refund or payment, and may report any relevant details, including user information, to authorities and financial institutions.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:25 PM
where do we find this article? *confused*
July 25th, 2007 at 4:25 PM
Well, this is not good. Basically, it says that if anything is illegal for any customer of Linden Labs, it’ll be not allowed for *all* Linden Labs customers. And considering the Arabic/Islamic countries attitudes on pornography, that means all sex *WILL* be shut down.
I think this was a bad decision. We will see if SL can survive with a significant portion of its economy shut down.
I can remember one situation somewhat like this in RL history. It didn’t turn out pretty at all. “Four score…”
July 25th, 2007 at 4:27 PM
Good Job!!! Thats a very good decision, last night i discut about shit on second life , casino (any gambling machine) is on all land on second life, more… Porn is a big problem to on second life, and other thing some king of peoples is very hungry to make moneyz and sell shit for hight price, try to take moneys from good peoples starting on second life, now am here for 6month, first impresion, thats a good game but lot of bug, sometime completly instable game, much lag every sim, bug bug bug,
I no lindens you work on it every days but please follow what you say now. and kill the stupid hippie pay ou some king of business not good on second life, many owner have stupid business try to take 1cent for good peoples,thats not good for newbie, comming in sl, anayway sorry but i speak more french, if your forum is french to i talking in french to understand what i say, i have a real business on sl and many other real compagny interested invest on sl but the game is UNSTABLE all the time lol and too much shit in world, you need to start clean up the game, for gambling thats a good way to start erase this mtf and ban lol
July 25th, 2007 at 4:28 PM
I take it from reading the document that this policy will also affect sploder balls, raffle balls and random money orbs - what a shame - these are things people really do enjoy playing
July 25th, 2007 at 4:28 PM
Policy says “all gambling is forbidden”
To quote:
“Policy Regarding Wagering in Second Life
It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life© environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:
(1) (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
AND
(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.
This includes (but is not limited to), for example, Casino Games such as:
o Baccarat
o Blackjack
o Craps
o Faro
o Keno
o Pachinko
o Pai Gow
o Poker
o Roulette
o Sic Bo
o Slot machines
It also includes Sports Books or Sports Betting, including the placing of bets on actual sporting events against a book-maker or through a betting exchange.
Linden Lab will actively enforce this policy. If we discover gambling activities that violate the policy, we will remove all related objects from the inworld environment, may suspend or terminate the accounts of residents involved without refund or payment, and may report any relevant details, including user information, to authorities and financial institutions.
” End Quote
July 25th, 2007 at 4:29 PM
>> Darien Caldwell Says: Odd, LL seems to be censoring my attempt to provide a quote of the policy. I guess you are just out of luck.
Ditto. I just tried to post it too and it says “awaiting moderation”, LOL.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:29 PM
This is not a policy. If it were, it would be clear & therefore closed to interpretation. It appears to me to be somewhat vague & as such is merely a guideline.
Come on Boys & Girls, please may we have something clearer, particularly on the points raised above. Thank you.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:30 PM
Good! I think gambling is one of the very worst things in Second Life, and am happy to see that some action is being taken.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:30 PM
Tringo, and Slingo are great games and the money in the pot is not in my mind a gamble! whats next? if i bet someone inworld 10l they cant jump as high as me is that illegal too? Please LL move offshore so we can all be free of this idiot way of rl that we have to put up with, Mexico is not so far away!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:30 PM
Will this include objects like Slingo?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:31 PM
I think SL is starting an implosion process. It grew big and now it’s becoming small again. In the end, it will not have much more freedom that your average mmorpg for example.I wouldnt be surprised if this later gets viewed more as a game than an online place and the esrb (spelled right?) has to slap in a AO rating on it.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:32 PM
The policy in question can be found at: https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=4532
July 25th, 2007 at 4:33 PM
What about the various *ingo games and things like money sploders. They require pay in, and random chance for pay-out…
July 25th, 2007 at 4:34 PM
I’m a Native American, do you need to get my tribal role number?
With some passing themsleves off as real coprorations doing business in-world, you have a larger dilema of allowing these people to continue playing corporation when this is a federal crime in most if not all countries. I say enforce your TOS and elimaintae accounts from thoe who openly steal from the community.
Better to be proactive than to do the two step later.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:35 PM
I don’t think I’ll ever understand why people confuse “freedom” with “breaking the law”. Every time such an issue comes up, people like #19 vomit stuff like “In the end, it will not have much more freedom….”
The law is the law, what the heck do you think Linden Labs is going to do about it? Get real! If the US government and regulatory agencies wanna give LL a hard time about something like gambling, they HAVE to comply.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:35 PM
@9 Definately, no more sploders & raffle balls. Can also see prize pot games getting the ax because they select winners by random. Seems the only way to pick up a few L$ that hasn’t been nuked by LL is camping. I understand the policy, and I do agree with it for the most part, but it just seems like SL is being forced to taste more and more like tofu with every new policy… bland and flavorless.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:36 PM
What I find MOST disturbing in the policy is the statement regarding enforcement that Linden Labs will “remove all related objects from the inworld environment”. The threat to delete user-created content is a VERY serious concern!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:37 PM
“We value free expression. However, stuff that’s off-topic, abusive, or otherwise busts the rules will be removed without comment.”
Would someone from LL please explain to the rest of us how quoting information pertinate to the topic, right from this very same website, is “off-topic, abusive, or otherwise busts the rules”? I would think that making the information that much more availible should be condoned and encouraged. Or, is there something that is in there that someone deems unfit for general viewing?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:38 PM
What is going on?! You’ve got to be KIDDING me. I just dumped a whole bunch of money in order to invest in an SL casino.
Wow, LL: thanks.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:40 PM
I feel misled, I thought second life was another world where real life laws didn’t apply. If you issue one real life law you should issue them all. Or you say gambling is illegal, as is gay marriage and guns should be forbidden as well. Guns might be legal in the us, they aren’t where i live, but do you ever think these will be forbidden? No way! So i feel very discriminated that i should abbey only US laws while laws in my country are a joke to linden labs.
The invasion of iraq was also illegal, the US is still there aren’t they? Why is again the whole world a victim of US imperialism!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:40 PM
@12 Harleen Gretzky - Slingo, since it is based on chance, I guess yes. Like sploders and raffle balls. On the other hand, things like Devil May Care, where there is skill involved in placing the pieces, are okay.
However you should be clearer on all of this Linden. Are you intending it to cover things like sploders? That’s a shame.
And @6 Dagmar Heideman is quite right. Since companies don’t exist as a legal entity in SL, just individuals, then Stock Exchanges should also be banned, since you are betting on whether something goes up or down, not dissimilar to sports betting. Or are the thousands of real dollars involved solely in a form of fantasy league?
So, I’m guessing, that since you use the term Lindens, they are now deemed to have value, and are no longer worthless game tokens or software licenses. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. And I guess this sets a dangerous precednt. As a Euro, not only must I comply with my own laws, but also all of the restrictive nonsense in the US…
July 25th, 2007 at 4:41 PM
eventually, (and it seems to be approaching fast) SL will be the online equivalent of salt lake city or any other moralistic and hypocritical polity you can name!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:41 PM
It’s rather frustreating to be unable to find the article. As a matter of fact I couldn’t find any info on policies on the website and neither could the search engine.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:41 PM
WOW, bam, no more gambling of any kind in SL, none… welcome to RL2, enjoy your stay !!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:42 PM
hmmm… power outages, teleporting problems, censorship… I guess my secondlife is turning into a first life nightmare. I particularly find it funny that they claim such acts of “online gambling” are illegal when Lindens are not legal tender in any country. They are only credits just like on a non-gambling gaming website (such as pogo.com). The only difference is you can buy and exchange these “credits”. By the way, with all these problems and censorship issues I really appreciate Linden Labs moving their billing from California to Great Britain forcing me to incur a “International Transaction Fee” without notifying me or giving me another option other than canceling or finding a new bank. I also am sure that this move will hurt the Second Life economy. Most residents make money to spend from camping stations funded by casinos. Without casinos, there will be no camping stations. Without camping stations residents will either have to pay real money into their accounts or simply not buy anything. If people don’t buy anything, there will be less stores. If there are less stores, less money gets paid to Linden Labs via land usage fees. That will eventually equate to stipend reduction and land use & private island fee increases. There will then be less residents which is good if you don’t like lag… at least that is a silver lining.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:43 PM
It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life© environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:
(1) (a) rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR (b) rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
AND
(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.
So that includes SLingo/Tringo/Bingo? That would mean one of my fav places will be going. One I often win some money too!
And so you can’t play Poker with some friends for a grand pot of L$100 ?
This truly sucks!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:43 PM
It is illegal to prostitue in real life, so is it in SL? Why have the escorts not been targeted? It is illegal to set of fireworks in my yard in RL, so did I break the law in SL when I did so on my island for July 4th? And so on and so forth with arguments that have been made before. There are MANY “illegal” activities in RL that could be the next to be slashed here. Can I build without a permit (sarcastic)??
July 25th, 2007 at 4:44 PM
Go to the knowledge base link login at the bottom. new screen will come up click policies let it load on the right and look for it, The policy is there… It seems to refer to casino games im not sure if pot games would be out but i guess we’ll see…
July 25th, 2007 at 4:45 PM
I assume this is the new policy:
https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/security.asp
July 25th, 2007 at 4:46 PM
I found the articles.
Are the following activities now illegal in Second Life?
1. BINGO, SLINGO, and OTHER GAMES where an individual wins the pot (donated by all players, and perhaps sweetened by the host)
2. SPLODER BALLS
3. RAFFLES
Please answer these - yes or no.
coco
July 25th, 2007 at 4:46 PM
This is actually funny, as we have sploders on the teen grid O.o .
I don’t think sploders will be off, as it’s not really a bet. Right?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:46 PM
@ 21
Bobo, amen.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:47 PM
if you follow the link to knowledge base then search gambling that seems to take you to FAQ but the link to the article is at the top.
Basically all forms of chance gambling will be removed from SL as i understand it. This is a biggie for owners of large plots relying on gambling income. Land values may drop like stones.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:47 PM
Policy also posted in forums, direct link:
http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=199826
July 25th, 2007 at 4:48 PM
Log into the support portal, and look under “Most Recent Topics, bottom of the page. It’s #1. Not that hard to find.
Still reading, will let you know my feelings later
July 25th, 2007 at 4:48 PM
Slingo is a no no
July 25th, 2007 at 4:48 PM
I personally am NOT FOR gambling or sexually related contents or anything immoral for that matter, but I’m glad to hear Linden Lab do what is just and right toward immoral behaviors and does not propagate or encourage such.
As to the example of the real life world, the Second Life world is what people make of it. Whether it be a brothel or a virtual Eden.
Nevertheless, thumbs up for Second Life itself in my opinion!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:48 PM
@Dana - That’s not true, losing land dwell pretty thoroughly axed camping chairs for a while. I’m surprised they came back at all after that.
Now, granted, I can’t read the updated policy (Odd… >.>) but the short version that’s outlined in the blog post is just that there’s no more casino classifieds/ads/place listings. There have been laws passed (One such on October 13 of last year) that were made to ban online gambling; It sounds as if LL has tried to keep that on the down-low. This isn’t to say that I’m for or against it, but I would like to see some of the land around my house become residential again, instead of yet another spinning cube with advertisements on it.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:50 PM
I operate under the belief that you were required to follow your own local laws. Just because you are using an internet service to mask your activities does not mean you are exempt from the law. Think about it - you can go to prison for distributing illegal material on the interent, why not get fined/shutdown for not following your local / federal gambling regulations.
The vast majority of SL users and gamblers should applaud Linden Labs stance on this issue - those laws were not only put in place to rake in money for the government, they were also put in place to limit the amount of corruption in the gambling industry. Most local/federal laws place definite extents on the odds of each type of game, preventing casinos from unfairly weighting the percentage of wins absurdly in their favor.
I do feel that this issue becomes much more complicated because of this decision… For instance: I live 5 miles from a Anishinabe American Indian reservation. As many know, if you run a business from within reservation boundaries you are under soveriegnty of the American Indian tribe who legally resides in that reservation. In this instance, this reservation legally allows many forms of gambling and if I follow local laws, I would legally have premise for operating a casino in SL.
I don’t currently operate gambling machines and I don’t intend to anytime soon, these are just my thoughts on the issue.
#4 - Anytime a company averages millions of dollars in annual profit the FEDS are going to be involved. They are involved in everything, that’s why the exist : ) Companies like SL get audited yearly by independent auditing firms who report EVERYTHING about the company to the IRS. I’ve worked in accounting and I can’t imagine what they put the SL accountant through - auditors want paper copies of every agreement, every transaction, every damn business document you have (and then some!).
This doesn’t even take into account the investigations into child pornography (or the depiction thereof) and other issues like copyright infringement. Once again, law enforcement is everywhere, that is why they exist. To enforce the laws which some ignore or blatantly violate.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:51 PM
Well as LL sanitizes the grid, this type of policy change will continue. Oh and Coco the other shoe just dropped.
Cat
July 25th, 2007 at 4:51 PM
What about Lucky Chairs? They don’t require a bet so would they still be legal?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:51 PM
Will this include Slingo/Tringo/etc., as well as Sploders and other raffle type objects?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:52 PM
Forget about this gambling stuff and let ppl be…. FIX THE BUGS WE HAVE NOW !!!!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:52 PM
Gambling is not Illegal in the United States of America. Not unless of course the government isn’t getting their share. If they are, they are absolutely happy allowing crime infested gambling boats to plague the rivers edges. Fact is, the laws are ever changing in favor of gambling. What used to be a must for a gambling boat to be on the water and movable is now not even mandatory. They don’t have to move, and they are really not gambling boats anymore.
It’s insane how the government has gone about legalizing gambling in their best of interests. Allowing local laws to be slowly but surely wiped in favor of such.
Nevertheless, That is the way it is in the US. We claim illegal gambling and have gambling all over the place. You can hardly get away from it.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:52 PM
Next you should ban alcohol and ensure only good honest Christians are playing. George Bush will be proud of you.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:52 PM
I was going to have a random giveaway of L$100 every Saturday to a random member of my Second Life group, as a way of attracting members - is that now forbidden?
@9, Chaz Longstaff Says: “Ah, you see, it’s only illegal in countries such as Canada and America, where government hides behind moral blithering to make sure that gambling only happens when the governments get to pocket most of the money. And that’s about it in a nut shell. They’re not adverse to gambling profits; in fact, they’re addicted to them. That’s why they crack down so hard when someone tries to bypass them or muscle in on their turf.”
Thanks for the interesting answer!
July 25th, 2007 at 4:56 PM
With Lucky Chairs no bet is placed. Is this banned too?
July 25th, 2007 at 4:57 PM
PS… For all these questions about sploders and lucky chairs. Those are not payable gambling devices with no chance of payout or winning. When you put money in a spolder, set it up so everyone gets a chunk of the pie. Hardly gambling. One person gets a little more than another. With the Lucky Chair, that is for promotional purposes and does not require a payment of anykind to win. I wouldn’t worry too much about all of this. This is SL covering their own backside with a little FUD is all.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:59 PM
Well, looks like my 2 years in SL has come to an end then. Poker is my source of income, and if they want to play big brother, I’ll do something else with my time. The imbeciles at Linden Labs do nothing but damage the SL experience these days, and I hope a competing game arises soon and replaces them.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:01 PM
Whats next are the going to get rid of the lotteries they are state run in the US and what about the clubs with dancers there are laws about that to.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:01 PM
There is no such thing as a virtul world unless LL offshore! get on with it or die a slow and painfull death and no one wants to see that. Please set up you world anywhere but the USA.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:02 PM
Next thing you know, we won’t be able to charge fees for escort services. Take it overseas, LL, or the only things left to do on SL will be getting griefed in sandboxes and going to church.
Dang. I was really enjoying the casinos, too.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:02 PM
Well - easy answer. Publish server side code as open source and i’ll set up a region in my bedroom. Don’t particularly like casinos but if people want to pay..and no I don’t live in the states. Oh and yes land price should plummet, but gotta move quick. Wheres my credit card? Vampie time lol
July 25th, 2007 at 5:02 PM
@22 Montana - Devil may Care and Slingo are the same thing, just a newer name. My question is not the chance aspect but the payout aspect, you need both to violate this policy. So does a game where teh pot comes from contributions by other players count as a violation?
July 25th, 2007 at 5:05 PM
Hmmm… I tried quoting less than one line of the policy and my post is ‘awaiting moderation’ … I have been posting on this blog from time to time since February … definitely not a first post!
Why is LL restricting the content of the new policy to inside it’s log-in required support portal when it should have been posted here on the blog in its entirety. It is very short. It would have fit.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:05 PM
@38 Tracy - Online gambling is illegal in the US, congress tacked on as an amendment to another bill they knew would pass.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:06 PM
You gotta be fucking kidding me.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:06 PM
There is a little vagueness in this last clause that I would like to clear up if that’s possible:
“(2) provide a payout in
(a) Linden Dollars, OR
(b) any real-world currency or thing of value.”
Does the second part of 2b mean, “any real-world thing of value” or “any thing of value, real-world or otherwise”? It would seem to me that a lucky chair would fall under the second interpretation (giving out, on the basis of chance, a virtual “thing of value” that isn’t Linden dollars) but not the first.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:06 PM
One more strike against “Your World, Your Imagination”.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:07 PM
The definitions seem too broad.
If we apply these definitions to the “game” of land speculation in SL then land ownership would constitute a violation of the policy, since the land owner’s ability to profit in the land speculation game 1) relies on chance, and 2) provides a payout in Linden Dollars.
And no, I am not trying to be funny. I am trying to illustrate the difficulty in enforcing these broad definitions.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:09 PM
What about games like magic, and so on?
July 25th, 2007 at 5:11 PM
Maybe some nice Native American tribe can start a casino that we can all go to gamble, just like we can go to Indian Casinos all over California!
I see a business opportunity!
July 25th, 2007 at 5:11 PM
@47 Yes. I understand this. But please be aware that the only reason this was the case was because the law wasn’t getting a cut. We have State Lottery in every state in the Union. We have gambling boats (Well used to be boats) lined up all along the rivers.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:14 PM
This action is ethically wrong. As stated residents are responsible for THEIR LOCAL laws. This blows that out the window. LL pretends the fault is with residents that have been legally operating under their local law and the terms of service while wiping out the value of their investments. Shameful.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:14 PM
You know, I live on The Rez here in Palm Springs, and the Agua CAliente are building a huge new hotel on the AGua Caliente Casino Grounds, It will be great!
Also, I went to North Dakota to work on a film back in May, IRL. Our route took us through Las Vegas where there we a few Casinos. Then we went through Utah, and into Idaho..I didn’t see any Casinos in those places,.
We stayed overnight in Billings, Montana, where Millionaire poker player Annie Duke got her start at the Crystal Casino, and the next day we were in Williston ND which has some nice Casinos.
Yep, Gambling sure is illegal in the US, Phil. Anyone can see that just by driving around…there is NO GAMING IRL. I like your ability to kowtow to the Paranoid US Congress. I imagine the IRS will be here soon, and we’ll all be getting out 1099’s in February.
/me wonders what ever became of Liberty. Stuff folks used to DIE for IRL. (..and they still do some places.)
Amazed that with a stellar, creative idea like this, you are one of “We, the sheeple…)
Aphrodite Tagore
Head Escort / Velvet Underground
July 25th, 2007 at 5:15 PM
Well, maybe LL should move to the IOM, Channel Island or some freer place like an EU Country where this sort of crap wouldn’t have happened.. People have made and continue to make a living (albeit small sometimes) in SL and to have ridiculous laws prohibiting this is insane… and affecting people.
After all this is the ‘adult’ grid is it not? Where we are meant to be able to make our own minds up about this sort of thing.. I know for sure I can control myself, I have no problems deciding what I should and shouldn’t be doing with out a law that tells me that wgering is bad!
Silly laws! I’m glad I live where I do and not in a country where the government think they have the right to tell me rubbish like this!
Governments need to remember that they are there to run our countries, NOT rule our lives!
LL needs to remember that there are people from all over the world that enjoy their creation, so maybe in the interests of ALL residents, they really should move the operation to a freer land, that would keep all happy.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:16 PM
Wouldn’t buying anything in SL be considered a game of chance. The odds are there
July 25th, 2007 at 5:16 PM
Has SL been shut down because of this as i cant get online for 1 hour now? Please LL respond?
July 25th, 2007 at 5:18 PM
SL needs to leave the planet beyond the reach of all Earth’s politicians!
I am sure the Russian Federation could boost all of LL’s equipment for a reasonable amount of hard currency. Power it with a nuclear reactor so no one would want to shoot it down.
I would rather see SL in orbit rather than the useless International Space Station (ISS).
July 25th, 2007 at 5:18 PM
Question: Tringo is a skill game.. but it depends on the chance that certain shapes will show up that fit your pattern. You aren’t winning by random generation of numbers or position… but the actual tiles are random. So… is it a game of chance? I know it isnt in the broader terms but….
Also, since people put money in on the chance that they will win some back.. is that gambling? I have always held that it wasnt because you had to accomplish/create something to win.
If the answer to that one is yes.. then, are all competitions in SL gambling where you enter in the hopes of winning money or an item and others determine your fate?
I know all this seems simple from the outside but it sure could get sticky.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Yeah please clarify a little as to sploders, raffles,slingo, tringo etc.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:19 PM
I don’t think Linden Labs had any choice. It has to conform to the law or there wouldn’t be any LL, and hence no SL. Linden Labs is a US-based corporation (so is SL-the servers), and is thus subject to US law. The same would be true if it was based in the UK or Brazil. In that case, everyone would be whining about British or Brazilian laws, especially a law as stupid as the internet gambling act.
I just don’t see this as the end of SL civilization as we know it. It was clear this new policy was coming. There’s plenty of other things to do in SL, and if anyone really wants to lose their money, I’ll be happy to give them directions to Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun (real not virtual) casinos.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Linden Labs you just set back the next gen. of the internet by 20 years atleast.Stand up for gods sake and have some balls release the sever code or move it off shore and tell the U.S. goverment to take a flying fuck
July 25th, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Lately you are gambling every time you try to rez a no-copy object. I wonder if that will be banned soon.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Thank you Jeff #52, I needed that chuckle
July 25th, 2007 at 5:22 PM
I’m thinking its might be time to cash out L$. I’d guess 40% on the “economy” in SL is connected to gambling in one way or another. (50% based on sex).
This could drive the value of the L$ down as people forced out of business leave and cash out.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:23 PM
it would be better if the FAQ had real answers:
“This policy only applies to wagering games that meet the criteria listed above.”
This is for example not an answer. If you include a FAQ it’s better if you use it to make things clearer. If all the answers are simply to read the policy again, feel free to delete the FAQ
July 25th, 2007 at 5:23 PM
Even the web page is down? Cannot find server? really?
July 25th, 2007 at 5:25 PM
Can’t help thinking this is going to damage the long term future of SL. A large percentage of new users scrape a living from casinos as a better way of camping. Now they won’t be able to and regular camping spots will be swamped. People are going to go away because they won’t be able to get up and running. No new players means sales will fall in other areas etc etc. “The end is nigh!”
July 25th, 2007 at 5:27 PM
Move your servers to Europe. This is absolutely ridiculous.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:27 PM
I predict an in world ‘valueless’ currency that people will buy and sell on the black market, how will LL respond to this?
July 25th, 2007 at 5:28 PM
I am very very aggrieved that I joined a game i assumed to be world wide. Only to find I am going to have to live my SL under US federal Law, laws which, to most of america and the rest of the civilised would are made from greed, and not from moral or ethical belief. I live in the UK, can Linden Lab honestly get away with terminating accounts where no law has been broken. Can they continue to expand thier TOS to keep the American Government happy. Your customers Linden are world wide. Show some respect!!!!
July 25th, 2007 at 5:29 PM
The Tringo/Slingo type of games that LL trumpeted in their marketing at one time fall into this category if poker does. Both are player-to-player games.
I am assuming sex for money is next. I live in Las Vegas, NV where gambling is legal and hookers are not. When does that crackdown happen?
July 25th, 2007 at 5:29 PM
Having log in issues as well but there is nothing on the blog about this. Don`t want to get off topic, but someone from LL might read that here and start to take care of that as it seems it is not only me who has issues.
Back to topic…I do think too that this will affect sl much. Gambling is a big part of sl….
July 25th, 2007 at 5:30 PM
heej why dont you ban sex ?
July 25th, 2007 at 5:30 PM
*packs her bag and waves SL good bye
July 25th, 2007 at 5:31 PM
Great!! Instead of Gambling we can all Buy a 512 plot and cut it up into 16m2’s and sell them for 20000 L a piece. Probably make more money that way anyhow!!! YEHAWW
July 25th, 2007 at 5:32 PM
Linden Labs tried this awhile back it didn’t work, it’s a game people do what can’t be done in reality and gambling is one, everything is a gamble even buying stuff in SL is a gamble and so is SL
July 25th, 2007 at 5:32 PM
nothing has changed, you have never been allowed to break the law using SL… this is nothing new other than LL giving people a warning that they need to be careful because many are breaking the law.
people who try to say this will go over to escorts and guns or whatever are just being silly. If you set up a virtual gambling place where people get free “chips” and can bet and win more or less and it has no real world dollar value, it will be perfectly acceptable. Escorts in SL arent really prostitutes, as talking (or typing) dirty to others isnt illegal for pay or not. Neither are “guns” that are not really even a gun illegal…
July 25th, 2007 at 5:32 PM