Foreign Transaction Fees
Friday, June 1st, 2007 at 4:25 PM by: jplindenWe have received several inquiries from residents regarding foreign transaction fees related to Linden Lab/Second Life that appear on their card statements. These fees are not originated by Linden Lab/Second Life, and we do not receive these fees. The fee is imposed by the resident’s bank, and can best be likened to an ATM fee. The amount of the fee varies from bank to bank, if it is imposed at all. It is impossible for us to know which banks and account types will incur this fee. Like a long-distance plan, the amount of the fee, if there is one at all, is very likely to be dependent on the type of account you have with your card issuer or bank. Sadly, we have as much ability to influence or control this fee as we do what your ISP charges for your broadband connection.
June 1st, 2007 at 4:32 PM
I have had some experience with this in the past and found out The only way a bank would charge a fee is if you or your billing company is handling visa or MC check / atm cards as a debit transaction and not a visa or MC credit transaction.
hope this helps
June 1st, 2007 at 4:51 PM
Oh look, more blogs - yes, let’s do our best to bury the important community breaking and hugely protested blog from earlier by posting all our innane non-news!
June 1st, 2007 at 4:55 PM
Oh yes, had to make sure that the “Keeping Second Life Safe, Together” post didn’t show up on the login screen. :/
June 1st, 2007 at 5:08 PM
My question is: Why are my lindex purchases being outsourced to locations such as the UK? I had my bank track down where the fees were coming from, and they were ranging from locations as far away as Singapore to England.
Why is my Mastercard information ending up overseas, when LL is located in the United States? Perhaps you can elaborate on that for me. Thank you.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:10 PM
Oh you guys are very cynical, I think this is a fair point to make. I’m still anxiously awaiting the id verification is here blog, this isn’t it.
Very true about the banks JP, I get a foreign currency fee, fortunately for me they give me a good rate even with the fee so I have little complaint but it’s worth pointing out that it’s not LL who impose these fees.
Now when will someone explain the contentious post? In the light of the Livejournal nonsense we’re getting a bit twitchy.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:12 PM
ZOMG, someone is missing 2 cents! This is worth a blog! Please people, atleast TRY and make it look like a professional coverup…
June 1st, 2007 at 5:22 PM
you could reduce fees by making the charge come from the same continent. I too have to wonder why a US company needs to charge US customers from the UK.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:24 PM
so does this mean when we start having to give out personal info (that is going to a 3rd party) that it will end up in other countries and LL had no control over that???
June 1st, 2007 at 5:29 PM
girl you livin dangerously
June 1st, 2007 at 5:34 PM
Why is my Mastercard information ending up overseas, when LL is located in the United States? Perhaps you can elaborate on that for me. Thank you.
could be cus the money ur buying is from residents and not LL?
June 1st, 2007 at 5:35 PM
No fault of LL’s. Bank charges are bank charges.
Get another bank, that won’t fleece you …
June 1st, 2007 at 5:35 PM
Excuse me?
“Sadly, we have as much ability to influence or control this fee as we do what your ISP charges for your broadband connection.” That’s the wrong analogy, addressing the wrong problem.
Linden Labs is an American company. I’m an American, with an American bank account. Imagine my surprise to find that my attempts to PAY Linden Labs are being processed by a U.K. bank…and thus are causing my American bank to REFUSE to honor the transaction. After lengthy calls to INSIST to the bank that the payment is not fraud, and that Linden Labs is not an online porn company, the bank then insists upon charging a ‘currency exchange fee’.
Grrrr
I realize that my foreign SL friends have long had problems with payment. And I’ve always been sympathetic to them. Billing for SL is seriously broken, and when it does work, its seriously mysterious. (go read the Forums for lots of examples.)
I’m a premium account, and SIM owner. I discovered that the Lindens had changed the country in which they bank when I tried to buy an additional Private Island.
My issue here is one of disclosure…There IS none—No acknowledgement by the Lindens that all payments in SL are now being processed in the U.K.
Then to state that ‘the charge is like an ATM fee’ over which the Lindens have no control is just silly. That’s the wrong analogy.
Here’s a better one: Imagine a LInden, ANY Linden based in San Francisco, who buys lunch around the corner from the office at Il Fornaio…Pay with your credit card…And it gets turned down…because the restaurant runs it through an Italian bank…and after you straighten it out with a panic call to your bank, your bank charges you 3% for a ‘foreign exchange’ fee.
And, ‘No”, there’s no sign by the front door warning you of this. Eat first, we’ll let you know when you go to pay. Or maybe you simply won’t go back…
June 1st, 2007 at 5:39 PM
Delora at #4 points to payments also being processed in Singapore.
Now I know why MC and AMEX will no longer honor payments to LL.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:40 PM
Since the majority of your customers are in North America why not locate at least *some* of your credit processing in North America? That way we both win since we save on these ridiculous fees, and you have less headaches from fewer customer complaints. So why again does a USA company have credit processing in GB anyway?
Oh, and I am pretty upset about that blog post ‘Keeping Second Life Safe, Together’ from Daniel Linden. I wanted to comment (along with thousands of others as it appears after reading the other blogs around the net) yet your lovely 100 comment limit prevented me. Please allow a vote on that ‘feature’ to prove that the ‘vast majority’ in SL really want this extra protection!
June 1st, 2007 at 5:49 PM
Hmm, i pay through paypal, no fees here
June 1st, 2007 at 5:51 PM
Can anyone from LL clarify for me whether these are foreign transaction charges or something else? And are US residents/citizens using US credict cards being hit with these charges? I’m familiar with foreign currency fees - any time I use my US credit card (VISA or MC, doesn’t matter) in Canada, I get hit. Those kind of charges are completely out of LL’s control. But from the sound of these posts, maybe there’s something else going on…?
Clarification, please!
June 1st, 2007 at 6:00 PM
I have something no one so far has explained. Why, when I pay LL with my PayPal account, does it show a drug store in the UK as the transaction point. While it is clearly second life, and shows on my account here, I must say it seems a strange way to do things.
Can a linden respond to this?
DRD
June 1st, 2007 at 6:09 PM
Sven - I haven’t had to do any conversion, thankfully, but you should keep in mind that those 2 cents you might pay in the US easily multiply themselves into full dollars when there is yet another conversion from US dollars to other currencies and/or when the local bank charges quite a bit more for international transactions, which is not odd in this side of the First World.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:19 PM
Why not bill European accounts from the UK bank and go back to the previous US bank for US accounts? Why should we have to pay a fee because you up and decided to switch to an out of country bank?
June 1st, 2007 at 6:38 PM
This even jacks with PayPal too, causing PayPal fees for customers located in the USA. Maybe the disclosure you all seem to be looking for is that corporate HQ is really in London? Not in Silicon Valley like you thought??
June 1st, 2007 at 6:41 PM
purhaps when ll starts working for the customer base making every attempt to make our lifes better not more difficult they woud have happy clients who would want to spread the good word to their friends not explain all the problems we encounter each day just to play the game. This is just another example of dribble, please fix the problem for us. By the way i never gave you the right to give my information to any third party. Do you have any idea what a class action against ll could cost you ? Wake up !
June 1st, 2007 at 6:50 PM
15 Musicteacher Rampal Says:
Why not bill European accounts from the UK bank and go back to the previous US bank for US accounts? Why should we have to pay a fee because you up and decided to switch to an out of country bank?
Exactly. We were not incurring these fees before the switch. Why didn’t anyone do their homework on this?
6 Sven
For a casual user perhaps the charges are nominal but if you are engaged in larger commerce, buying Lindens, Private Islands and paying Land Usage Fees on those islands you can easily dump 1,000 USD or more down the drain just in transaction fees.
If you buy 20 islands at 1675.00 USD each, you end up losing $335.00 USD on the island purchases and $708.00 USD yearly on the land use fees. Transaction fees are 1% each time so $16.75 x 20 islands = $335.00 plus 295.00 USD Land Use Fees $2.95 x 20 = $59.00 x 12 months = $708.00 for a total of $1,043.00 USD yearly
in transaction fees alone.
Mind you, there is no value added to the service you receive from Linden Lab for your generosity in paying some banker in the UK to put food on their table. Although $1,043.00 USD would cover Premium Membership costs for well over a decade.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:57 PM
If you thought that the “Open Letter” got you lots of negative publicity, wait until this gets around.
My U.S. Credit Card, being used at t U.S. company, is processed through a U.K. Bank??????? Are you joking????
Philip had better address this and soon. We will not accept these fees just because your excessive chargebacks lost you your U.S. Merchant Account.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:57 PM
Heh. I had to switch to PayPal because the new account verification is done in the UK and their manner of doing things doesn’t work with my U.S. bank.
Hah!
So here’s the thing. The foreign transaction fees are legit, but there are ways that they can be minimized - and foreign transactions aren’t the only ones being impacted. Outsourcing is fine and dandy, but isn’t India cheaper than the UK?
June 1st, 2007 at 7:02 PM
The original poster does not seem to say whether these fees are imposed on American or non-American residents. It would be VERY odd for American residents to be paying foreign transaction fees for services they get from an American based company.
I also remember when I got billed by LL in the past for an island. The bill appeared on my statement as USD, but then got converted into local currency. (There were never any foreign transaction fees to go with it.)
June 1st, 2007 at 7:13 PM
sounds like an evil twin ponzi brown’s motel scam in progress lol. i think LL better HALT whatever they are doing and get all transactions for US residents back to being handled in the USA. This situation sounds like it needs some attention from the Department of Homeland Security.
June 1st, 2007 at 7:20 PM
Actually - you *do* have influence on the fees.
It seems to have something to do with your bank being in Great Brittain???
So much for FULL DISCLOSURE on your part - I had to call my bank to learn this VITAL bit of information.
What the hell is an American=based company using a bank in Great Brittain as your primary?
Hey - that’s okay, but it seems you should *at the very least* disclose this everywhere on your site and in the viewer where I might be throwing any money at you so I can make a *informed* decision.
It just seems to me LL is getting shadier and shadier as we move along.
June 1st, 2007 at 7:41 PM
Possible reason for singapore billing is to protect residents against a gambling crackdown in the US?
June 1st, 2007 at 7:42 PM
If I can put two and two together here, Mastercard users will find that Mastercard in the US has - presumably for reasons of assumed fraud - blocked Mastercard transactions via US processing centres.
However, Mastercard’s UK division has not (yet) followed their US division in blocking Linden Labs for assumed fraud, and therefore users of Mastercards find their transactions routed through a UK processing centre, thereby accruing charges and currency exchange commissions.
Jury is still out on who is to blame. Certainly the bank and credit card companies LOVE this setup; it makes them more money… but you have to ask just WHY have Mastercard in the US blocked Linden Labs? What do they know, or think they know, that we don’t?
June 1st, 2007 at 8:00 PM
So much for an inane post to help push down the “safe” post.
This one turned out to be a butt biter in disguise.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:03 PM
That our charges are being processed overseas explains JIRA issues WEB-139, WEB-140, and WEB-141. I closed them because they appeared to be account-specific billing issues that needed to be handled elsewhere. In a way they are, but Linden Labs has not explained that our billing is being processed outside the US and could result in declined charges because it sets off fraud flags.
JP and other Lindens: I think it is urgent that you explain completely and transparently to us how our charges are processed, and why the switch to overseas processing occurred.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:08 PM
24 Untameable Wildcat Says:
If I can put two and two together here, Mastercard users will find that Mastercard in the US has - presumably for reasons of assumed fraud - blocked Mastercard transactions via US processing centres.
I understand where you are coming from. But to clarify, transaction fees are also incurred if you have a billing agreement through PayPal backed by your bank account or VISA/AMEX etc. Removing Mastercard from the equation entirely will not alleviate you of these charges.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:10 PM
“If I can put two and two together here, Mastercard users will find that Mastercard in the US has - presumably for reasons of assumed fraud - blocked Mastercard transactions via US processing centres.
However, Mastercard’s UK division has not (yet) followed their US division in blocking Linden Labs for assumed fraud, and therefore users of Mastercards find their transactions routed through a UK processing centre, thereby accruing charges and currency exchange commissions.”
Funny though, My bank did not flag LL as assumed fraud until AFTER they switched to a UK bank…??? Now I have to call my bank monthly in order to get them to allow LL to bill them.
i agree…what has caused all this blocking of LL due to assumed fraud?
I also agree that LL keeps way too much to themselves rather than advertising it freely so that we can make phone calls and decisions BEFORE we incur fees!
June 1st, 2007 at 8:42 PM
I am in agreeance with most here. I pay a US company money from a US bank and I am being hit with foregin transaction fees because a UK bank is processing them. thank god my bank only charges 1% but when I pay $295 tier monthly and spend a good amount of money buying lindens that all adds up. I agree that transactions by people in the US should be processed in the US. Being a single parent RL every dollar I get is budgeted and this was a shock that I went untill April without one FTF. Oh well. I guess less of my money goes to here now.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:45 PM
All of my monthly charges for all 16 of the regions i pay for each month is put on my MC and shows up on my statement as SECOND LIFE 1 800 8606990 GBR. and there are no fees involved.
In the past when i ordered products from the EU and used my VISA debit card and there was a fee from my bank for those transactions. when i looked in to it I was told by my bank that these were POS transactions and being handled as a debit by the company i was buying from.
The agreements that banks have with visa and MC if i am not mistaken prohibit the charge of a fee for purchases made as a credit. how ever purchases made as a debit are subject to a fee if the issuing bank so desires because debit trans actions are not handled through the VISA or MC credit process.
I highly suspect that the people who are having fees assessed to there account are using debit cards with the visa or MC logo on them and there transactions are being processed as a debit because it is cheaper for the company to process a debit then a credit. every charge made by a CC has a fee that is paid by the merchant this is part or there agreement with the CC company and is how the CC company makes its money .
June 1st, 2007 at 8:46 PM
I called PayPal the first time my tier showed up as a payment made in a drugstore in the UK. They could not explain it nor could they explain why merchant agreements with LL seemed to fail.
LL has had issues with different banks, PayPal, etc on and off since I have been a member.
I wonder if all this payment rerouting and shinanigans is just some LL geeks way of working the system rather than fix a problem, or if possibly someone in LL is pocketing a lot of money and LL is in the dark.
The idea that purchased Lindens come from an individual and not LL when using LindEx makes some possible sense, but that would not explain my tier payment going to the UK.
And since we are on this topic, why the hell does it take LL 5 days to transfer money back to me Via PayPal when everyone else does it in seconds.
I really think it is time for LL to step up and explain all this questions on financing, payments and charges to us.
How about it LL, this isn’t water not showing now, this is real hard earned $$.
DRD
June 1st, 2007 at 9:21 PM
Crucial,
That would be good information if the credit card company didn’t levy a fee against you when you received your bill, but they do. Just because the charge doesn’t appear at the point of sale, it doesn’t mean that you accrue a savings by using a credit card over a debit card or PayPal.
June 1st, 2007 at 9:33 PM
hey just a quick Question for LL i’m downgreading though and i wanna konw if the Sell $L function will actually help me cover the last total payment completly so i can do a clean downgrade involving SL only and not go near my “real money”, thank you and keep up the good work
June 1st, 2007 at 9:34 PM
I think this is ridiculous it’s real funny cause I have the same credit/bank company and have always used the same cards and never ever was charged this fee, until recently when the billing area changed. I suggest to everyone that gets these fees to buy lindens from other places like slex and other things but for land, I guess that’s another story, I have been buying all my lindens from slex and other providers they don’t charge me foreign transaction fees! I don’t mind getting a few lindens less for my money. I am tired of all of the billing problems I have had with linden lab!
June 1st, 2007 at 9:35 PM
I dont use Debit Cards. My issues are with CC’s from MC and AMEX. only VISA is working now for LL payments. I’ve also tried every combo of Paypal and CC and THAT won’t work either.
June 1st, 2007 at 9:36 PM
Lets not forget the fact that the tos linden labs has been beating us over the head with for years which has protected them from giving any kind of level of service has now been found to be not legally binding.
SECOND LIFE, May 31 (Reuters) - A Pennsylvania judge has ruled that Linden Lab’s terms of service for Second Life residents are not legally binding, according to court papers filed on Wednesday.
Maybe they will haveto *gasp* start providing a level of service like most other companies we use.
June 1st, 2007 at 9:42 PM
It’s also real sad on how when we lose things in second life due to database issues and things like that how linden lab is not responsible for those items lost, from now on if I lose anything, I will go straight to my credit card company and have the charges reversed!
June 1st, 2007 at 9:57 PM
as i understand it… reversal of charges = banned accounts. make sure you have all your stuff sold off and have recovered all your rl cash before you go that route.
June 1st, 2007 at 10:05 PM
For interested folks in the USA, you use a Capital One VISA, they do not change for foreign current transactions.
June 1st, 2007 at 10:39 PM
@Ann,
Well I guess then if my account is cancelled I will reverse every transaction that I have ever done with linden lab, my credit card allows me to go back a full year.
June 1st, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Add my name to the list of annoyed users. I pay $600 a month to LL and am now looking forward to a $17 a month forien service charge on top of that?.
As an American paying money to an American company, going through a UK bank is just plain shadey. And yes, I know “you have your reasons”. Reasons which I suspect will remain forever unknown. WHo cares if you screw 30% of your users along the way, if it saves you money along the way…
And as others have said. Don;t pass the blaim here, this is ENTIRELY within your control. YOU decided to do this to us, it is YOUR FAULT.
June 1st, 2007 at 11:01 PM
I used IGE before before LL made it so you could by instantly from them. I was a regular buyer at IGE no problems. As soon as I tried to sell $100,000 it was treated like some criminal. All I wanted was a simple wire transfer. Buying was easy, selling was a nightmare.
It took nearly four months to get RL cash out of them. I had to prove I was who I said I was fax them a form with my drivers license, sign papers. They had to confirm my identity with my CC carrier and my bank. These people are in Singapore.
June 1st, 2007 at 11:18 PM
Strange, but I withdraw money from ATMs all over the world with no extra fees! I have even made a withdrawal in the Galapgos Islands with no problems and no extra fees!
Could this really be a way to hide the banning of all “nasty thoughts” by th eLL thought police in the name of “safety”?
Thus far I have over $5M promissed to anyone who will actually produce a successor to LL who listens to their users and not the US Military’s wet dreams about “virtual conferences”! Yes I attended those meetings in RL and I know about the BS!
June 1st, 2007 at 11:24 PM
From the UK, I’ve always had to pay a small fee - the last one showed up as “Payment to Linden Lab United states, this transaction was for USD40.00 at exch rate 1.901 and includes commission of £0.57″. That’s about a dollar.
I’ll have the look on my next statement and see if that fee has disappeared, if they’re using a UK processing place now.
US players complaining? Welcome to the real world, where things happen outside of the US borders. Linden Lab might be *based* in the US but it’s now a global company.
Having said that, I see no reason why charging can’t go to a local bank in many cases and save these fees… but I’m guessing that “moving offshore” was a smart move for reasons we don’t yet know?
Broccoli
June 1st, 2007 at 11:27 PM
yes like anyone i talked to friends family ecs. who never even hered of this “video game” say there consepts are a little radical and these are people with a future and have a “functioning” brain and are “proactive”, ya the U.S. knifing’s shadey, for real
June 1st, 2007 at 11:35 PM
I just hope - “Your world, Your imagination” is not all I am left holding one morning when I log on.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:14 AM
It’s my first post in SL blog. But Fees are normal when you use credit card to buy foreign device. For exemple when you travel in a different country (except European Union countries) you need paid fees to use credit card on country that you visit. All thing that you do with your Bank have a cost LOOOL.
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:10 AM
I agree with broccoli, I am from europe, france, and always got fees for transactionx outside europe, now it is over, no charge. I undestand it could be annoyed to have to pay fees, why does LL do not use local banks?
sorry for the english, it is not my primary language
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:01 AM
All-out-excellent reasons to buy not one sqm of land and find other agreements that keeps the rent on L$ only and only inworld.
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:07 AM
uumm use paypal
at least you know where yer 3% extra is going
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:14 AM
oh and i live in the uk when ia was paying a premium account i was paying for a commision for LL through my creditcard and while you all bitch and whine about paying a commision fee then HI THERE ppl they use the uk banks as they get more cash as the current exchange is $2 USD for £1 UKnow if i think corretly LL are using a uk bank as the conversion from us to uk gives them more when they convert it from uk to us and then send it back so the commision is not a fee …..its a exchange rate fee
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:43 AM
Hold on, I didn’t realise you had a bank in the UK, I’ve totally missed the point of this update. Why can’t I buy Lindens in pounds then?
June 2nd, 2007 at 4:45 AM
Can I ask does this effect those living in asis as well? I am in Japan and i wondering if i am effected in this as well?
Usagi
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:20 AM
Well how lovely… LL says its my bank, and my bank says its LL
How the hell is this the banks problem, when the charges are clearly from Great Britian?? pathetic.
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:26 AM
Bonjour,
En effet, en france aussi les banques prélèves une taxe lors de l’achat de Linden $.
Et le plus incroyable, la banque, n’est pas en mesure de fournir une explication quant au mode de calcul.
Johnlost
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:36 AM
Can’t really see what all the fuss is about here, folks…
I use Paypal to handle my transactions… I set my primary currency to sterling (my home currency) then Paypal only presents charges to bank / debit card / credit card a pound sterling transactions… Paypal handles the currency conversion so the bank / credit card companies only see pound sterling transactions - they have no reason to charge me a foreign cuyrrency fee, as laid ouy in the bank/credi card ToS. Use the tools at your disposal, folks; read the small print from financial institutions and plan your transactions…?!? Easy really!
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:46 AM
I am not amused by a LINDEN saying that it’s not LL’s fault. Guess what? It is. That is the essence of Customer Service. It is NOT my bank’s fault. It is LL bank’s fault if an exchange rate fee is done. And the choice of LL’s bank is LL’s fault. I didn’t tell LL to change from an American Bank to a UK bank, nor did my bank.
Fact: The exchange rate fees and refused withdraws from LL didn’t occur until LL changed banks. If I find a fee for an exchange rate on my CC when/if I have to use it, I will be taking it up with LL, because I didn’t make my purchase overseas. Get an American Bank for Americans and you’ll have a lot less customer support issues to deal with.
For those that are saying LL didn’t warn us? They did, but it was buried in the blog as usual. It’s also been booted about in the forums (that thing that most Lindens avoid) for some time by the users.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:28 AM
Something is very wrong here.
Linden’s REFUSE to answer questions in a straightforward fashion.
1st. it is the Age verification using very personal information,which by the way folks,talk to your taxc man,all the info they require is and CAN be used to track your incomes,for tax purposes.Hope you have been paying taxes on earned income in SL. and now..a foreign bank? Sounds fishy to me.
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:03 AM
So LL is using a bank in the UK? hmmm
maybe they have to use a bank? after all, there is a lot of gambling in here.
Look what is happening in our country? The Feds charge BETONSPORTS execs under a ’sealed indictment’ and then wait for these british guys to change planes in the United States and then arrest them all. I think the Lindens are smart to take their banking transactions outside of the United States, where certain rights are still respected
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:49 AM
Woot!
Now All I Need To Do Is Move To America!
O.o
P.S. Guns Are Kewl ^^
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:03 AM
With all due respect LL, this one is wrong. I just finished “testing” EVERY credit card I have, and I have several for use with your new billing provider. NONE of these cards are debit cards, and I tested using both Visa and Mastercard. ALL of them are charging foreign currency transaction fees, and the majority of them are 3%. This is totally unacceptable. I tried activating PayPal billing to get it to work, and it decided to fail for “unknown reason” while I was out of town. I don’t know what the problem is, but I can’t afford to have my credit cards disabled every month due to a LL transaction. The security departments at the credit card companies are paranoid enough. As a victim of identity theft and then a resultant bankruptcy, I can’t continue like this. Please either rethink this decision or get the UK company to bill us in USD.
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:37 AM
why should it be paid in USD? please consider that majority do not use USD as primary currency, then if something is to be askes, it is to be billed in the customer’s currency, thanks for all non US residents.
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:34 AM
The members that say the same thing in every reply - you realy do need to get a life!!!! If LL doesn’t post news you whine. If they do post news you whine. There is a real easy answer to make you happy and not be so unhappy with the way SL is run. DON’T USE IT!!!!!
If you think you can do better why have you not done it?
This is an honest answer to some members questions. I would sure like to know if I were getting charged extra fees by my bank. The only thing the “keep it safe” post did was show once again how many crybabies we have on SL…. That post should have been common sence - if you see something, report it. I guess all the people looking for black helacopters just did not get that.
SO have a nice day and would you like some Cheese with your Whine?
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:45 AM
Just out of interest what is the name of the UK “drugstore” that the LL payments show up as?
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:48 AM
#54 - you said everything I was about to say! hah! I opened the comments simply cause I was curious how people would manage to find a way to bitch about this blog. It’s ridiculous people. Don’t like how LL does things? LEAVE! and take your whining with you.
*curtsy*
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:04 PM
Well seems I’m another one to add to the bucket. I also have been charged International fees ever since they switch to some new bank over in UK. In my case it’s not 2cents its 12 cents per transcations. I don’t care what those may agree upon this or those in Europe celebrating their no fee deals now cause of the change. But prior to all this, no fees where charged and never LL notified by any means this new scam. Sounds like another way to get some extra cash just like with the publicity of the Class 1,2,3,4,5 severs which till now reguarles of having the best derver out there for your sim, still SL works bad. This is more a fraud then anything else. Don’t make us boycot L$ transcations and masive desertions from Second Life!!!!
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:09 PM
@JDtrued
Looks like you live in welfare and free donations that you make such pathetic statements and looks like you have a non premium account as well. you add these 12cents per transcations and in a taimely fassion your diverting money to some fat cats in LL. And heck yeah we will whine if behind your back your getting ripped off! Add this sauce to your cheese.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:11 PM
So let me see if I have this right…
I use an AMERICAN debit card to pay for servers based on an AMERICAN mainframe….owned by an AMERICAN company…and I am being charged FORIEGN transaction fee’s because LL uses a FORIEGN bank to process payments??? PER TRANSACTION?? Doesnt sound legal to me. These fee’s are not being charged by MY bank…they are being charged by a bank in GREAT BRITAIN!
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:20 PM
…I stand corrected…I am being charged FORIEGN transaction fee’s because LINDEN LAB chooses to use a FORIEGN payment processor to handle my AMERICAN purchases. Please forgive me.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:21 PM
What is it now with these hidden scams? I’m getting charged 12 cents too. I am in the US and LL is in USA? What the heck is going on??? You better have a better explenation to this LL!!!! My bank doesnt send 12 cents because it feels like it if it isnt inquired by the source of the transaction….
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:25 PM
I am in the US!!! You are in the US!!! Why are you charging me from a foreign bank? This is the stupidest thing I have seen lately from Linden Lab, that you cannot even charge US accounts from your US bank!! Zee Linden and his staff need to look into this, because YOU will be losing money on this in currency conversion costs as well. I cannot believe that your billing staff are this incompetent.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:26 PM
Tervavus, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment. Re (someone else’s comment) I am a UK resident. I can’t think of a drug store over here that does banking. That does sound dodgy
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:10 PM
Two years ago SL was a wonderful place with great people from around the world, everyone was so nice and helpful. When you saw a newbie you welcomed them to SL with a smile maybe gave them some old inventoy to help them along a few tips. You made a new freind. Not like SL of today are you paid or not paid? have you had your identiy verifed? do you have a mic? aree you one of the “moral majority” and not one of those” nasty perverts” . There was no euorpeans bashing americans , americans bashing europeans.
LL took care of us like a benolvlent goddess who cared about her peopel and there happyness. and we loved her in return. There was no need for corprations like toshiba IBM , sony and what ever esle has showed up that i havent seen, was no need for moving our money thru foreign banks, or shiny new gadgets and pretty features. New things were created by us the residnets.
I look around at SL today and i dont see the loving freindly comunity we once had what i see is a mirror of RL greed, hate,self centerness and a dozen other things most of us came to SL to forget about in the first place. Even as i wirte this i fully exepct to be flamed for this post. Do i expect anything to change? no as my BF tells me nothing ever stays the same in SL its constantly changing. But i hope some read this and at least rember what it used to be like and rember we came here to have fun chatting shopping meeting new peoel from around the world, and i hope maybe one linden reads this and rembers how it used to be how LL created a wonderful world for peoel to express themselves in ” your world ,your imagination”
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:38 PM
4 Delora Starbrook Says:
June 1st, 2007 at 5:08 PM PDT
My question is: Why are my lindex purchases being outsourced to locations such as the UK? I had my bank track down where the fees were coming from, and they were ranging from locations as far away as Singapore to England.
Why is my Mastercard information ending up overseas, when LL is located in the United States? Perhaps you can elaborate on that for me. Thank you.
You know LL is in the black now… making a profit… selling personal info like AOL use to do is one way a company can make a profit. 6 million people is alot of revenu.
Just speculating i have nothing to back this up… but it could be possible.
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:26 PM
Too funny all the Yankees talking about England like it’s a backwater. London is still the financial capital of the world, you know — yes, even over New York. Oh, London? Sorry, that’s a little city in England. And yes, if SL is going to compete against all the other virtual worlds making plans to go global, then SL has to go global, too.
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:27 PM
The way I see it is that more then likely they swiched to a foreign bank tom ake getting the money harder if thay are sued, it becomes a vary problem more hten likely, the banks in the UK dont have to follow US laws.
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:53 PM
very interesting!! If this was a new “shiny thing” thread, there would have been several Linden comments postedby now trying to make us buy into it like good little avatars. Yet this is another LL scresw up costing us money and the Lindens are all ducked down behind their desks working on the “next great shiny thing” to try and distract us from core issues.
Makes me wonder if there’s any adult supervision at LL.
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:42 PM
@61
Chaz that is as narrow minded post as you claim us “yankees” are. Going global doesn’t mean having one bank in London. That is nothing different than people from the UK bitching that the only bank is located in the USA.
The problem people are having is SL is based in the USA and people in the USA expect not to be charged surcharges coming from other countries.
If SL was based in France would you be happy if they had their bank in the USA and made you pay surcharges?
Look at it from all angles before making such insulting remarks. Yes most people in the USA are well aware London exists and most would like to visit it someday.
June 2nd, 2007 at 4:36 PM
I have chosen to spend less for this reason in spite of it being your fault.
I asked my bank about it interesting that they said they were fees based on charges your company is imposing not them. When I called Linden Labs it said they had to move their billing to UK and that was from the new billing including sometimes having the billing taking week or two even show up.
June 2nd, 2007 at 4:56 PM
Maybe they should just move the whole company to this foreign billing place lol , there are so many billing places here that they could use what is their real reason for having it in a foreign place. It really would be nice to know why they have a billing provider in another place! Maybe they don’t wanna play with the rules that would apply to them if they had a billing provider here.
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:00 PM
This is hugely funny. Why does anyone pay for this game?
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:37 PM
Foreign Exchange charges, Transactions fees…. This is not news, its just banks being banks.
Seriously, if you need to ask Linden Lab about transaction fees, you need to pay more attention to your banking and personal finances.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:05 PM
#67
Is it REALLY too much to ask that an American company bill its American customers (30% of the population) from an American bank?
I have a LOT of services I payfor, including other international games and such, ALL of them have American billing institutions for their American customers.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:25 PM
all I can do is cover my mouth to try and hide my giggling.
Here is the most likely scenario:
LL attempted to thwart fees for our lovely Euro friends by hooking up with an english ‘bank’ (or drugstore, apparently) to work the european transactions, HOWEVER, as with everything else that seems to have been done ‘for the good of the citizens’, they went about it totally wrong and now EVERYONE pays thru the outsorced billing agent.
This would definately explain why all us 2 year, plus, US players are now getting a great big old shaft (again). Simply chalk it up to one of the lowly helper-lindens filing the wrong paperwork or some such.
A few of us kinda saw things like this happening when LL opened the doors to euro’s - and that’s not meant to offend the overseas crowd, it’s merely pointing out that the doors were opened way before all the little ’sale’ stickers were in place.
Makes me glad I pulled my credit cards from this line of fire. I do applaud LL for their great job of covering up (read as HIDING) a very controversial and under-explained new policy. Glad I got my avies fitted for priest and nun outfits last week :-/
Since they seem to hop right on the bandwagon when someone gets offended: I GET OFFENDED WHEN I GET SHOT/CAGED/GENERALLY MISTREATED ON A PUBLIC SANDBOX. Why don’t you ban ALL firearm and offensive type scripting?? This happens so often that it is no longer worth the effort of filing a grievance
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:54 PM
@Tormento
No I am a premium member and land owner with a land fee. But if I don’t like how SL is run I don’t have to use it. If extra fees become a problem it is easy to fix sell my land and change to a basic membership.
But I was not complaining about the members that are upset by the London bank or the fees that is what this thread is about it is the members that whine about everything else in every thread….
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:14 PM
So, regarding the quickly trucated, surprise issue of ‘violence play’….
First… we have a widely applauded crackdown on child sexual simulation. Now that the regulation door has been opened, suddenly role play involving ‘graphic and violent sexuality’ is beyond the pale and offensive to all. That’s it for the many pirates and most goreans, yes?
Ah, yes, the slippery slope of adult expression, ever threatened by the fear for the safely of our children (though there are no children here, right linden labs? Oh, that’s right, LL backpetaled on that one “…we never intended to verify age…” etc. kk, your ass is now covered, smiles).
Soon, no doubt, when I get asked for cyber, I will be able to trounce the perp with ‘lawsuit’ play and get them bounced out of SL. “Oh,” Desde gasps, “I was soooo offended, Judge. Imagine, being expecting to …. but I can”t say it. I mustn’t engage in ‘testimony’ play. The ABA would be offended.”
Ah, well, tennis anyone? Perhaps we’d rather be sailing.
desdemona, who still loves SL and thanks LL for SecondLife.
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:21 PM
I actually had my credit card declined and disabled. When I called to see what the problem was, I found that it was flagged because a foreign transaction was charged somewhere in London for Second Life. I too am confused why SL is charging from a location in London when they are based in California, USA. It is very suspect.
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:51 AM
All you great minds, discussing other people’s money: Do you have the remotest idea of international money transfers? They cost a fortune. The reason they do not cost us a fortune is banks and CC companys making the most effective use of the transfer systems available.
But I wanted to point out two other things:
Fees for charges via CC are charged to the seller, not the buyer. So LL moving away from pure CC payment is just saving money. Extra fees for exchange are charged from the bank accepting the CC company charging you.
The current bank LL is using being located in the UK allows them to use direct debit in the future. Direct debits working Europe-wide at one day’s notice for a constant charge of 15 Ect each for the seller and free for the buyer.
Now if you had to manage finances of the volume LL has to, would you rather like 3% or a fixed rate per payment when you can decide when to charge?
Oh, and if the “happy customer” thing should come up: Would you rather have 225.000.000 potential customers suing you on their coffee being to hot or 445.000.000 potential customers being cautious about what they do?
June 3rd, 2007 at 3:03 AM
Anyone who is calling the Americans whiners would be similarly appalled if they bought something from a company in their home country who charged them in their home currency and found an extra “foreign transaction” fee on their statement. There should have been warnings about this emailed to all customers before this happened. Any responsible company would have done so. And for you to simply say, “Sorry it’s not our problem” is ridiculous. Take some responsibility.
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:00 AM
*sigh* I say it again, for those that missed it last time… those outside of the US have ALWAYS had to pay a transaction fee for currency conversion.
It’s just your turn now, americans.
Broccoli
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:35 AM
#73 Yes, we all know that.
Except. If you lived in the UK and you were paying money to a UK company, would you THEN expect to pay a forein currancy fee? Would you not be surprised to find out that your UK company was billing you, a UK resident, from Spain? You see why people in the US are upset?
If SL were a UK company and I lived in the US and I signed up for it knowing I w3ould be billed in pounds then I would HAPPILY accept the fee as necessary. That is NOT the case here!
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:56 AM
Yea It only took you a month of theses fees before you address them. My fees are over $75 dollars more a month now. Nickle and Diming the residents for over a month before us tell us about it. I’ve sent emails after emails about and now you tell us. THANKS LINDEN LAB keep up the goos work. Sounds like Zee and Paypal are best freinds.
June 3rd, 2007 at 10:01 AM
Fortunately I haven’t got a credit card.
It’s to expensive in Europe, I would actually have to pay 10 dollars of fee with every transaction done with such a card. (That is beside the interest and anual fees I would have to pay for such a card)
So I am not suppriced people are complainig about the extra fees they have to pay.
I hope linden lab will make transactions without such a card possible.
Thanks in advance …
June 3rd, 2007 at 10:28 AM
Seems LL has control of the fees based on what banks they choose to process credit card transactions.
It appears to me that they chose a foreign bank that offers them a better deal at the expense of the customers.
Plenty of processors in the USA BTW, I checked.
Not nice.
yevkie
June 3rd, 2007 at 10:40 AM
@Broccoli
I realize that people in other countries have always had charges like this. Global fairness is not the issue. It’s an issue of communication and responsibility. They changed their billing system which is creating additional fees for a huge part of their customer base. They don’t say a word about it until customers bring up the issue, and their response is “Sorry not our problem.” That is terrible customer service and it seems typical for LL these days.
June 3rd, 2007 at 11:35 AM
Broccoli.. the problem is they never warned us about this change. Either they weren’t aware this would happen, or they didn’t want to risk losing customers if they did warn us before hand.
LL is losing their user base left and right at just about every announcement made on this blog. Pe