Further Clarification Regarding Age Verification
Thursday, May 10th, 2007 at 9:20 PM by: Robin LindenAs I’ve been talking with people about the process and reasons for verifying Resident age, a few questions remain, so I’d like to call out a few key points:
- verifying age is completely voluntary
- you will need to verify age only if you want to enter parcels/estates flagged as containing adult content.
- adult content is that which is overtly, graphically, or explicitly sexual in nature or intensely violent.
- flagged parcels must be located within M-rated regions, but M-rated regions that aren’t flagged (i.e. they don’t contain adult content) can be accessed without age verification
- age verification will have a one time fee associated with it. For those with premium accounts Linden dollar fee will be nominal. Basic accounts will pay a higher, but still relatively small Linden dollar fee. These fees haven’t been set yet.
- everyone will be able to verify at least one account. We are still deciding how many alt accounts will also be able to be verified.
- payment information was never meant to be proof of age. In fact, credit cards are not restricted to people over the age of 18, nor are credit cards available in all countries. We’re looking for a way to verify age that reflects the way each country provides identification to its citizens. We have been recognizing accounts as verified when we have payment information because this means the account holder has given us enough information not to be fully anonymous. But it was never meant to be used as a proxy for age verification. Since we’re dealing with content and behaviors inappropriate for minors, we need to specifically verify age.
The timeline for implementation, the final processes for each country, and the associated fees are still being determined. We’ll continue to update you as we have more information. In the meantime, please continue to send us your feedback and ideas.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:30 PM
as SL grows more and more regulations come into effect, I suppose this is inevitable, but still I find it sad, I hope I understand the new rules well enough to comply-I don’t understand many of the changes, the best I can do is what is reasonable to understand-this seems pretty reasonable, but I hate providing info to everyone all the time.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:32 PM
I agree that age verification is required. I applaud Linden Labs for their stance against child pornography. Awaiting details of how verification will work for a resident of Australia.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:36 PM
I really don’t understand what Second Life is the only internet service will need this type of verification.
In general, my “OK” in a button is sufficient. If i’m under 18 and click this, my parents are response with that thing and not the internet service.
This method is no clear for me. The reasons, the “why”, the goal… Think is dangerous in several ways. I’m off.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:36 PM
Again I’ll suggest that you also pave a way for the parcel to block non-age/ID verified individuals without having to flag the location as containing explicit content.
For example, our store sells avs, but they are not explicit or particularly violent in nature; however, if we wanted to block individuals who are not ID verified as adults (to weed out throw away accounts griefers use) during events…. without adding the stigma or to add a missleading flag on the land that it’s speciffically for adult content… it would be appreciated.
It is my opinion that there are times and places where people simply arent just interested in restricting a parcel to confirmed adults because their location contains stuff for the sex trade. Perhaops, for example, they want to only host to those individuals truely dedicated to Second Life enough to have gone through the effort of verification.
Leaving only the flag of “Adult” explicitly sexual content can cause missleading parcel flags and more trouble than it’s worth for some users to use them.
So please add the “Explicit Adult Content” flag, but please also add a “Allow only ID verified” flag in the parcel restrictions as a separate setting.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:36 PM
Wow this is a fast update to this issue. Atleast a few lindens are watching the forums…..how many alts wil be a intersting watching topic here . I wonder how many will left after this system goes live.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:40 PM
Still a huge load of nonsense. I see that specifically, the reference to SSN-based verification has been removed; Is this issue being kept carefully out of public view, and are we to assume that with no Linden response over the past 48 hours to the concern group inquiries that we are still on the same path? I have cancelled my paid account over this matter, other residents are doing the same, and I strongly urge you to sit down, have a black-and-white discussion with residents head to head, and change your policies based around a compromise mixture of what you hear from them. Doing otherwise is inviting a mass exodus– while you may seem to think with your recent policy decisions that you can indeed exist without your users, you’ll soon find that without them, your wonderful metaverse ad-market becomes thin indeed. Announcing the use of Integrity before actually using it, as well, was another nail in the coffin of common trust for Linden Labs. I will -not- trust any new measure, especially after having been brazenly told one thing while the very company you planned to use, stated another!
May 10th, 2007 at 9:41 PM
So in a week after this is released and the majority of Second Life Residents that do not verify their age mounts, will Linden Labs be refunding the large losses that many places in second life are going to have with the loss of a quite sizeable portion of residents?
I bet no one has thought of the impact this will have on the businesses in second life. I give this experiment 1 month before its a resounding failure, but not before the damage has been done to the businesses it affects.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:42 PM
my concern lies completely with the number of accounts one can verify. i haven’t a problem with giving the last 4 digits of my SSN# on account of i have to give that every time i pay a bill online or over the phone so i know it’s not illegal for you to ask that so long as you aren’t asking for the whole 9 digits of my number.
i have only 2 accounts this one (drayko desantis) is my secondary account which uses my secondary email address. however my primary account (rainah thunders) has a different email address to it. i dont know seemed like a good idea at the time: primary account-primary email etc…
so my question is this; will i be able to verify the both of these without having to pay seperately for each of them? that would really stink if i did have to do that. you say you haven’t determined how many alt accounts can be verified yet but i hope that in the very least you allow for 2 of them.
other than that i have no problems with this at all.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:45 PM
i hope we can say we have adult content, just so access is age verified. I don’t want 17 year olds who pretend they are 20, running around my sim. They need to stay in the teen groups.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:46 PM
I understand the wish to verify age. I also understand my own and others’ reticence to hand over this information to a third party. Honestly, I think LL is trying to do this too quickly, without thinking about all the avenues of possibility. You already use Paypal as a payment venue. This is just one possibility, but Paypal retains lots of identity and age-verifying information for those that have even the free business accounts with them. Anyone with this type of account or above at paypal have already been verified as to identity and age. Would LL be willing to accept this as another option?
Just wondering over the options..
ElQ
May 10th, 2007 at 9:48 PM
1) You have my name and address from the credit card information that I gave. You saying you cannot use that information and give it to your 3rd party (like all other businesses do) and have them use that as verification? That way YOU are doing it instead of ME. Cause to be honest, the way you had us do it when we first started BEFORE you opened the flood gates was EXACTLY how porn sites do it….
2) Here’s a yes or no question cause it’s basically not being answered cause some say no some say yes…. Is Adult content the ONLY place you can live and go to have SEX? or is Mature also considered a place where you will see SEX being done…. Notice I did not say intensely violent……most countries definitions very on what explicit Sexual content means, so THAT needs to be explained in detail to allot of non-US estate owners.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:50 PM
it occurs to me that this is now the third blog post you’ve made specifically on ths topic.. and the information hasn’t changed. The community is not graciously accepting your proposed identity verification, nor your intended use of a certain company which has been unofficially disclosed elsewhere.
Repeating yourself again and again will not make us like it any more.. it will only reinforce the general feeling of the residents of Second Life that “Linden Labs does not care what we want”.
I am far more interested in a “per scripted action” access to a user’s age verification. Allowing my vendors themselves to differentiate between Verified and unverified purchasers. Since the majority of my retail goods are not adult in nature, I do not feel that one bad apple spoils the barrel.
I am also concerned that Linden Labs would conscion the merger of the Main and Teen grids. Yet, by making such verification optional, LL is in fact “looking the other way” in regards to minors on the so-called “Adult grid”.
If such age verification systems are to be implemented, they should be required, uniformly, as a condition to participation in Second Life’s “Adult Grid”. That way, we and LL can know with certainty, that “all users are in fact adults”… as LL originally intended of it’s Main grid.
To do anything less is to create a ghettoization of Second Life. As to the matter of whether it will be the Age Verified… or the non-verified side of SL’s main grid, that will become the slums, who is to say at this stage. But surely one can see.. if it becomes optional, “Age Verified” status will become yet another means for groups to discriminate. Denying access to verified members… or denying access to non-verified members.
All you do, by making this optional.. is fuel hate and division.
All you do by making it mandatory, is lose those accounts unwilling, or unable, to prove they are over the age of consent.
As a resident, I choose the latter.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:50 PM
I see a very few percentage of underage people who have violated the TOS have now put this responsibility onto the legit people on SL.
LL’s made an announcement that they were going to do restrictive logins during heavy peak times but never did because they say the unverified accounts were a small percentage.
I would have to say that the underage accounts is even smaller. SO, in their wisdom, the legit players have to fork out money AND put their identities at risk.
Anybody remember a short time back LLs’ got hacked and all passwords were changed because of this?
My companies insurance company “accidently” lost a laptop with everybodies personal information on it.
A company in India held a medical company in the US hostage for money otherwise would release all the patients information on the net.
Some drug company “accidently” released everybodies mailing address’s onto the internet.
WHO is going to take the responsibility if our information “accidently” gets leaked or hacked?
NOW, somebody tell me WHY the MAJORITY has to pay and take the risk of having our personal information on the internet for the small percentage of underage TOS violators?
P.S. Fake Identification is very easy to get.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:52 PM
It’s been said over and over and over again, this is “voluntary” but in saying that, is it really realized what is going to be limited by said sim flags? It’s going to be limiting a noticeable amount of content, to where the point of “fun” is killed, most likely, and ones only option will be to pay the fee.
Yes it is voluntary, but if you want the full, fun, experience of what I thought was a game, one will need to pay a fee. Which is still yet to be announced, as far as I’ve seen, to those whom have payment info, but don’t have payed accounts. One could now even begin to consider SL becoming a porn website, due to these factors. What porn sites require are in general:
Your Birthdate
Your Credit Card Number
A name.
What is SL requiring now? (For most Americans, which are still the lower populace in SL in genera)
Your Birthdate
Your Credit Card Number (for payment info accounts)
Your Home Address
Your 4 digits on the end of the SSN
So in saying this…It seems above and beyond a porn site now, in all honesty, but, to play this “game” to full extent, I will be paying the fee for access to the fun sims. (Which I still wish there was a monetary value thus far)
May 10th, 2007 at 9:53 PM
I’m not opposed to age verification per se. I am opposed to giving out the “keys to the kingdom” (SSN, date of birth, and address) to a third party. I’d really be interested in see the contract between LL and Integrity. It would be interesting to singing if Integrity is specifically prohibited from retaining the information or specifically prohibited from passing it on to its parent company and what, if any, penalties will be imposed on Integrity if it violates the contract.
I have this feeling that LL didn’t wake up one day and decide to do age verification. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Integrity approached LL with a proposal to do age verification and isn’t charging LL anything to do it. They just want access to the personal identifiable information of a couple million people without having to do anything other than sit and wait for the people to hand it over.
This kind of work costs money… much more than the $10L per person that I’ve seen quoted. How likely is it that a company would do age verification for such a small amount or that LL would pick up the bulk of the cost for its members?
I think everyone should just refuse. Yes, it would be painful to not be able to go to the places you want to visit and yes, some designers would lose some money. However, I’m willing to bet that LL would back off when no one is creating anything and no one is buying anything (cause they can’t get to the stores because the stores are on parcels flagged as adult).
May 10th, 2007 at 9:56 PM
you know anouther option is to simplly not make lands as adult. in reading the TOS earlier today nowhere did i read that land must be marked adult if it is already mature. Please if im in error call me on it but i see no reason to freak if you simplly dont mark the adult tab and only deal in people who are not marking their land as such.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:58 PM
Yes, you’ve defined exactly what age verification will require, however, there is still the concern with a company that has, so far, no sort of reliable backing to it. Why are you choosing Aristole and not a well known company, such as VeriSign? I think that there might not be such a huge outcry if we didn’t have to worry about our safety and wonder if we’ll have to check our credit reports every month for potential Identity Theft.
There is also the concern about someone’s private items in a mature parcel. Are you going to make a private sim owner flag the entire sim Adult if one resident has, say a SexGen Bed? Seems like overkill (think using a nuclear bomb to kill a mosquito). I suspect that there might be lots of ban lines going up.
Even though there is no mention of SSNs being used, I will be very wary of this verification if it does indeed boil down to it. SSNs are NOT, I repeat, NOT an age verifier. My 14 year old niece has one. What does that prove? That she’s a citizen of the US. That’s it.
Please, consider using another company other than the one you’ve chosen. One that has a positive reputation. I will not be surprised if there is a mass exodous when this is finally launched. Maybe more people need to do voting by cancelling accounts.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:58 PM
I don’t have a problem providing data for verification on websites, BUT only to those sites whose security I trust. In the case of SL, I am extremely concerned with what you will be doing with my personal data: how are you going to store it, where will it be stored, who will have access to this data, how will it be secured from unauthorised access?
I am extrememly cautious about where I leave my personal data regarding any internet activity. At this point in time, I don’t consider SL to be a “high-priority” internet activity where I am prepared to divulge my information; I would probably cancel my account rather than risk this. There is enough Identity Theft online; I certainly don’t plan to add my data to this problem!
Sitting on the fence till further developments…..
May 10th, 2007 at 9:58 PM
yup, sad it is.
I’m still unclear with the legalese language, so I got some definitions for precision.
Overtly -
Open and observable; not hidden, concealed, or secret
graphically -
giving a clear and effective picture; vivid: a graphic account of an earthquake.
written, inscribed, or drawn.
depicted in a realistic or vivid manner: graphic sex and violence.
containing graphic descriptions: a graphic movie.
explicit -
described or shown in realistic detail: explicit sexual scenes.
having sexual acts or nudity clearly depicted: explicit movies; explicit books.
…
I understand why this is happening, but in reality, there is no real way to verify age completely, short of seeing someone in person. And this will not stop child abusers who like to ageplay - who are adults, so can easily get around all these measures anyway. We all know what this does - it just makes people operate in secret, without any age/identity information at all.
Children who slip onto the grid don’t want to be kids - they want to be adults. They’re not likely to be found in “ageplay” areas, not willingly anyway! The risk is far greater for them to enter into a relationship with an adult who isn’t into abusing children at all, and getting an ugly surprise down the road. Likewise you’re not likely to find a pedophile in adult areas with avatars who look of age.
So until there are things like retina scans every time someone uses a software to match their physical person to a record, there will be no airtight age verification - only verification of the person’s identity you have on file, which may or may not be the person driving the avatar. We really know what this is - barriers to entry for online businesses, preferencing the brick and mortar counterparts. Escorts are much cheaper in SL than in Germany, let’s face it
(and yes, prostitution is legal there)
sad to say, but true. But it’s not your fault, I understand that. Anyway, I guess I will hang in there, it sucks for everyone all around.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:58 PM
I remember a “funny” thing happens here in Brasil.
We had lots of CD-Roms circulating in the streets illegally with informations from users of private company services.
This informations are used to spam things and unfortunatelly, for extorsions made from prisioners in jail with a celular phone and many informations about your victims.
The companies? Nobody knows, nobody see, nobody hear… Nothing.
May 10th, 2007 at 9:59 PM
I think the way for linden labs to listen to us is to have as many people as possible not log in for a day, or a week, or maybe a month, until they get the message that the residents are the reason they have a company and second life still exists.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:00 PM
To state post-cursor, I am saying “SL requires” in the reflection of access the said “fun stuff” in game. I know for a fact that it will be “voluntary” per se, but situationally, one might be forced to pay just to access their home sim. Please don’t misquote me, in any sense upon that.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:00 PM
http://yanai.blackmage.org/sky2/?page_id=2543
That is all.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:06 PM
This is the second night in a row LL has posted a hot topic after midnight, North America time. If, like yesterday, a couple of people hog the posting, you need to seriously reconsider limiting the number of posts in a thread. It’s almost like you don’t want to hear from North America…
Does the word “responsibility” mean anything to Linden Labs? I seriously doubt if porn sites do any different, I suspect they shift their age verification process off to third parties, but at least they don’t brag about it. If you want to do age verification, at least have the guts to accept responsibility for it as a company and not try to shove it off on your customers and a third party.
As someone said earlier, people keep raising the same questions and LL keeps making the same replies, the LL replies not addressing the legitimate concerns of their users. LL has done the same thing with concerns about stability of the system.
Customer confidence/goodwill is a finite resource. At some point, it will run dry. The flattening of SL’s growth curve hints that that time has arrived. It is true, if LL returns to having just 2,000,000 users, and never more than 20,000 concurrently, a lot of the load problems will go away. But the missing millions of users will be the content providers, the people buying land and building on it, be it businesses or just for fun. What will be left with be a bunch of corporate wonks wondering why their company collapsed and a bunch of people squatting on camp chairs hoping to earn enough to buy a kiddie avi.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:06 PM
I doubt we are even being heard. Honestly.
I read somewhere upon the many blogs that are upon this, and this is how I paraphrase what was said:
“Chances are, they are reading the blogs, and correcting what mistakes might have been said, making sure players know what is fact, and what is just a rumour. They are not going to listen to our complaints at all, they probably already shook hands on the deal with Integrity, and will, almost beyond a shadow of a doubt, put the Age Verification into action, and simply just deal with the shitstorm that will pursue their actions. There is almost no point in complaining, they aren’t listening, they are making sure we understand what they are going to do, and do it. I give up.”
May 10th, 2007 at 10:07 PM
@15 “15 Raven Welesa Says:
May 10th, 2007 at 9:59 PM PDT
I think the way for linden labs to listen to us is to have as many people as possible not log in for a day, or a week, or maybe a month, until they get the message that the residents are the reason they have a company and second life still exists.
Well this would work 2 years ago. But with money chair and fake newbies RP money tree farmers 24 hours a day. This would not work.if say 30,000 users would not in a 24 hour period the dent in the 24 hour people would to work. Because it will soon be filled up with useless money making avies only in the game for money.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:10 PM
I do not feel the need to reiterate many of the points that have been made before, and so I will simply state that I am in agreement with what seems to be the majority of concerned residents. That stated, I have a few direct questions for LL:
1. When will we be able to see the Privacy Policy that will be associated with this age verification process?
2. Will there be an understood and legally binding contract between and amongst ourselves, your third-party verifiers, and LL pertaining to the statement you have made that no private information will be retained?
3. Will there be a limitation of LL’s liability included in this contract, if it does exist, or will you accept responsibility and liability for the leak of our private information in the event of a security breach?
4. Since this entire decision seems to be primarily motivated by the fear of legal inquiry into the affairs and conduct of LL through Second Life, what charges (if any) have been filed against LL, and in what courts have they been filed / where are they being investigated?
5. What will LL do with respect to the option to detach your camera and scroll it through restricted boundaries?
6. Will Groups that pertain to “overtly, graphically, or explicitly sexual in nature or intensely violent” content be restricted in the same fashion?
Thank you for taking the time to read these concerns.
-Onyx Syakumi
May 10th, 2007 at 10:10 PM
Umm.. NO. There is no need for this. You agree in the TOS that you are above 18. If they are indeed NOT 18 it is the parents responsibility. All this does is make a butt load of people uncofortable, and a buttload more leave, and even more businesses FAIL. So. NO nononono NO!
May 10th, 2007 at 10:14 PM
I think with the ease someone can create an av or horde with little or no verification and then go on a griefing rampage, verification of some kind and allowing property owners to restrict their property to verified individuals would be a good thing. That said, the next issue is mandatory flagging of parcels where certain activities occur. This gets more complicated since we have people from different countries with different laws. What must be flagged in one country is permitted in another. The easiest way to handle this is to encourage everyone to verify and to flag their property. This would limit the unverifiable avs to areas that are PG. There also needs to be an alternate system for people to be verified who, for whatever reason cannot be verified by the system. So far I haven’t heard any mention of it. They need to figure the whole thing out, announce they will be doing this, (I know they have already done this, but they need to step back) ask for comments, which they are already getting. I think the purpose should be identity verification as adult, not just for sites extreme sex and violence (whatever that is), although those sites should be mandated as requiring verification. Heck its been a long time since someone carded me.
When there were fewer people on grid there were informal policing systems, policing the grid at some level is almost impossible with over 100,000 people on in a day, too much is going on, and I don’t want the Linden Police trying to oversee the activity on the grid, they can’t. This allows Linden to have made a good faith effort at adult identity verification.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:15 PM
To all the lindens who are according to robin are “listening to our comments and feedback” Don’t say we didn’t tell you this was a bad idea when all you are doing is listening to everyone that is saying this is a great idea! So you all can jump for joy when this goes live and falls burning into the ground leaving everyone running for cover. Have fun with your upcoming failure lindens!
May 10th, 2007 at 10:19 PM
I say the responsibility, of what minors see on the internet lies with the parents, not Linden Labs.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:19 PM
Oh oh oh.. and from the other post about child stuff since they are blocked. “Our investigations revealed the users behind these avatars to be a 54-year-old man and a 27-year-old woman.” SO.. IT WASN’T AN UNDERAGE PERSON BEHIND THE AVIE..
May 10th, 2007 at 10:20 PM
Even I have seen most of the comments since the announcement of age verification and as Robin pointed out it voluntary.
Yes nothing is foolproof, but may i point out nothing is private on the internet how many ways you may try there will always be personal data leaking out from every person who goes on the internet.
I be the first willing to help and test it.
But please if you implement it take away the paypal verified account payment so i can pay for my SL account.
Wolvie
May 10th, 2007 at 10:20 PM
This i agree should be done, but adding a cost to it like a one off payment seems like just another way to get more money from us that already put ALOT into the game, that i am not happy about.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:22 PM
I would like to stand and applaud Second life for bringing this feature in.
I for one, will have no problem with providing LL (or whoever they chose to use for their verification) with every detail required to make this work. Also, I will be happy to set any land parcels I have to require full age verification…I think it is about time that something is done to get underage players out of our grid.
I think it is a shame that so many people seem ready to bash and flat out reject EVERY single notion that LL try and impliment. Good on you second life… keep up the fantastic work!!!!
May 10th, 2007 at 10:23 PM
if people are so upset about age verification - villifying Robin on the blog isn’t going to help. I don’t think they really want this anymore than the rest of us do.
Villifying politicians would, though. Because it’s real life politics that is forcing the Lab to do this. And until people hit the tipping point and go postal on the politicians, nothing, I mean NOTHING, is going to change.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:25 PM
*APPLAUSE IS HEARD FROM THE LINDENS FOR ALICE*
Bravo!! A person that will give up all their information and will mark their place adult! So when this company sells your information, we will see how glad you are for this happening.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:25 PM
@20 I totally agree. Dont Parents pay any attention to what the kids are doing? I know growing up my Parents payed attention to what i Ate, Drank, Watched and Did on the internet. If minors get in SL it their Parents should be responsible for what they do and see. NOT ME!!
May 10th, 2007 at 10:27 PM
I agree with Raven Welesa. Adding Age Verification will, no doubt, frustrate quite a few people into “boycotting” by not logging for an extended time. Others may just quit the game.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:27 PM
I am not worried for business,,, 98% in SL are adult RL ppl. Avarage age in the aduly gird are 30 y…There are 83.000 Primium accounts,,and still growing with 2.500 new premium a week….The ageverification will be easy and annonym and also safe, remember there are wery good laws to proteckt your privacy. Why worry ? i se new opertuneties here
May 10th, 2007 at 10:28 PM
@21 - I expect to hear a lot of complaining when you realise the kids are here to stay
yeah, you can set everything adult, but I seriously believe most businesses on the grid are not going to do that. And most people, except a small percentage, are actually going to verify.
And some of them will be kids, too. As its always been… because its presently impossible to really age verify.
What you really mean to say, is you want people to pay for accessing Second Life again, or pay a nominal fee. That kept out a lot of kids, simply because they didn’t want to pay for it. (even though the argument is that they could - they generally don’t, and the ones that do - well, they’re mostly not a problem anyway)
May 10th, 2007 at 10:29 PM
gah, my world for an edit button
most people are NOT going to verify.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:30 PM
How many alts are we allowed to have? and if some are premium and some non-Premium, what is the fee in that case?
May 10th, 2007 at 10:30 PM
Janeforyou, why are we worried? Probably because Linden Labs has been hacked before, and they never acknowledged the full extent of the damage.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:31 PM
I remember LL mentioning something in the “Child Pornography” blog that there is a possibility that giving Social Security Numbers as a means of age verification will come into play. This opens up the possibility for an EXTREME breach of privacy. It’s basically like opening up your door and inviting potential criminals inside your home. I’m not saying LL would capitalize on the possibility to steal the identities of millions of its users, I’m just saying the possibility exists.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:36 PM
Putting issues in implementation aside, I’m in principle in favour for age verification. But at the moment this looks like you are going to create a two-class-society, in which there are the ‘clean avatars’, which are unverified, and the ‘dirty avatars’, which are verified because they are engagend in questionable activities in connection with porn and violence. As mentioned in comment 3, one could think of situations, where only verified avatars should be allowed but which have not so much to do with porn (verification could also be used as a tool to stop griefers, organized bands etc). What I’m aiming at is that I think it should become the _standard_ to have a verified account, and not the exception. Verification should appear as a way to show that one is ready to take responsibility for the actions of one’s avatar, and not (as it is now) as a way to separate the sex-people from the rest. If you don’t fight against such a separation, then SL will be divided in two parts, and one could imagine situation where verified (sex-) avatars are not welcome in other places (btw will it be indicated in the profile, if the account has been verified?) And also think of the impact in the media: what happens when 80% or 90% become verified and the press takes this as proof that SL is obviously only interesting for people who like it rough?
So, to summarize: do the age verification, but don’t do it for accessing adult content only! Verification should be a way to indicate that there is a serious and mature person behind this avatar, who is ready to take responsibility for his actions in SL.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:36 PM
Hi, wow this is going to be fun!!! at a 1/2 Century Plus one I feel Giddy about being asked for my age and things!! Wow and being this age, Istill gt the Guys looking in my direction!! hahaha, the Cabbie today was askiing am I married!! what a compliment!! He missed the Ring on my Finger I guess, had to show it to him 2 times just to show it was there!! No I don’t actualy numerate it, if you don’t know what a Century is then you either are too young, or got lost in school somewhere.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:36 PM
The old method of using a Credit Card to verify should suffice for one simple reason- What MORON of a parent DOESN’T check credit card bills? Tack on a $1 fee or something so they’d see it.
NOW- before all this “adult verification” begins, start walking around. See how far you can go before “naughty bits” are seen for sale. NOW imagine how far you can get when you are blocked from that area.
With the amount of news reports of stolen laptops & hard drives increasing, do any of you think your information will be safe? Data theft is now the BIG crime on the internet.
Forget the method being discussed & go back to using a credit card. It’s the PARENTS who are ultimately responsible!
May 10th, 2007 at 10:37 PM
“The Standard” for age verification is the use of credit card. This is what ever large portal requires to verify age. Since Linden Labs never initiated this or other standards current members will need to pay the price of loosing privacy to a third party company.
The issue of LL collecting SS# or other information is less important than the company that collects and stores this for all time. Are you will to let any politically based company to have access to your personal information and possibly tracked in-world behaviors?
Linden’s banishment of adults engaging in sexual acts in roles that may be interpreted as child can be considered a quick fix that fails to solve any problem. The US Supreme Court in defining porn and decency on the internet agreed that a cartoon like figure can not be considered with the same weight as those with actual images of real people. I think it could be argued that Linden Labs violated the rights of free expression.
If Linden Labs is going to restrict child-like images will this also include Magna and other like images?
1. Let’s do this within the standards and guidelines that the world is using.
2. Let’s verify with real proof and facts if content is questionable and then hold the person responsible for publishing this content.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:37 PM
@22
Out of the said 6 million some odd people, how many of them are under 18 and come to the grid?
I doubt you know.
I know I don’t.
I doubt anyone has a definitive number.
Chances are, the amount of underage players in real life playing Second Life are literally countable on ones fingers and toes.
So brushing things off as “keeping all those underage players off our grid” would be considered, in my opinion, a very weak argument for the Age Verification.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:38 PM
@29– As i understand it not Linden Lab that will sit on this in there database? At other places i am we use CCbill.com and thats hacker safe, if thay was not thay will be fast out of business,, but yes even my bank can be hacked. We are on Internett. Your own homecomp can be hacked. Your CC card can be stolen. Nothing are 100% safe anywere.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Robin Linden
You need to be careful as you linden labs may be violating other country laws
Such as giving out passport photo copy ,no no no. Giving ID numbers NO! you asking me and others to break our country laws?
If you are not careful you will have more then just the German and American goverment on your backs. by violating laws in our countrys.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:41 PM
@3 Onix Harbinger Says:
“…if we wanted to block individuals who are not ID verified as adults (to weed out throw away accounts griefers use) during events…. ”
This is one interesting side effect of dropping the payment information and replacing it with ‘identity/age verification’ information. I am a premium subscriber and if I do not choose to age verify, since I do not frequent adult venues in game, I may find myself being treated as an unverified ‘griefer’?
I have never banned anyone from my land or store just for being part of some ‘group’. I would have lost half of my income if I banned unverified accounts in the past, and from the polls in the forums it would be more like 60%-70% lost with this new system.
I may go ahead an verify depending on how the system looks after it is implemented, but for now I am planning on taking a wait and see approach to it.
I think we all need to step back, take a deep breath, and use some common sense here.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:42 PM
32 - no I don’t
I know I don’t like giving my passport info to a third party though, you know - enough information for my identity to be stolen.
That is the real issue behind age verification for most people here, who are against it. Also, I know why this is happening, I see the trends in Europe.
Tell me how you feel, when someone steals your chipcard with all your identity info on it and ruins your credit - was it worth it?
May 10th, 2007 at 10:45 PM
Again, I’d like to know how long it will remain voluntary?
When it doesn’t work - which it won’t - are you planning to move it from voluntary to mandatory, and if so what sort of timescale are we looking at?
May 10th, 2007 at 10:45 PM
I’m not oppossed to age verification but I think they need to go about it a different way. Maybe Have the person call in the info required and no you do not need a social to prove your age and identity. Simple CC info, maybe a phone number or a state ID or DL. I’m sure even the other countries have some sort of id that is similar to a US state or DL. That right there is enough info to verify age. If you can’t provide that much then hop on over to your local city, state or goverment office and get an id. I know when Men enter the age of 18 they have to register with selective service and In Cali when you hit 18 You have to get at least a state id which they will offer you to use your SS# or a randomly picked #.
LL should rethink the way they are handling the age verification. It’s a good idea but not a good way of going about it.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:46 PM
My original registration gives my real birthday.
I am a 42 year old adult. Enough.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:46 PM
I have to agree with 8… all you keep doing is repeating the same information. Is it really too much to ask for a few simple things -
To know EXACTLY the agreement between LL and Integrity
To know EXACTLY the fees required
To know EXACTLY how many alts will be allowed to be verified
And most importantly, to know EXACTLY whether or not this is going to involve SSN/NI numbers.
With those questions answered, you’ll find a LOT of the trepidation regarding this issue will subside.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:46 PM
Okay you all are off on verification I did my screaming on that earlier..
But the sexually explicit NEEDS to be defined… cause one countries attitude (hey all females walk around topless so that’s norm) against another’s (covered from head to foot anything but eyes showing is sexually explicit). What Is Linden Labs using for the definition?
Yes I used extreme but one of my non-US friends basically said Mature: you can walk around naked.. Adult: you have sex with your partner. Is this what LL is using or not??
May 10th, 2007 at 10:48 PM
“I may go ahead an verify depending on how the system looks after it is implemented, but for now I am planning on taking a wait and see approach to it.”
I’ll probably have to, given the nature of what I sell from time to time, I’m not happy about it though.
I’m going to have to totally reorganise, and put things on different kinds of land, which isn’t ideal at all. I bought land in a mature sim to sell mature items… it’s not making me happy that I find myself having to change everything for the fact I doubt most adults will verify under this system, unless they’re hardcore into adult activities. Which most aren’t.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:48 PM
My name was on the VA list that was taken by “accident”. I am of age, by a couple of decades. Having had my ssn# used illegally I am unwilling to hand it out to anyone at this point, and if i remember correctly, a ssn # is NOT valid id.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:50 PM
This is really not about Age verification. It is about putting RL to SL so that so that you can be tracked down.
It is dunny how Second life Theme was to be a second life. A place of fun adventure where you can escapre form RL.
Now it is triyng to be made into a pixled version of RL. As you can see they keep taking little and little more each time as they have been this year.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:51 PM
Something that really strikes me as odd with people’s complaints about all this, is that they claim that they don’t want their private information to be at risk. However, many of those same people had absolutely no problem supplying Linden Labs with their full credit card information, something which can, just as easily, be abused should they choose to do so.
If you’re someone who’s never used their credit card for an online purchase, subcription or service of some sort, then your complaint about being at risk may actually hold some ground. But to those who that doesn’t apply to, you should really re-consider what it is you’re actually complaining about. Because as an earlier poster said, your credit card can just as easily be used for fraudulent practicess by companies on the net. A lot of online services that require credit card payment require you to fill out a form with AT LEAST your city, full name, and complete credit card number.
So if this age verification worries you so much, yet you have no issues making online transactions using your credit card, I think you should really take a step back and re-asses your own logic.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:52 PM
I’ve been meaning to comment on this, but comments are always closed. The onloy problem I have with this is the idea of expecting people to pay for something LL should be doing anyway. Age verification should be a necessary thing, being that SL is for 18+ only anyway, and that adult content may be inadvertantly viewed by unverified users anyway, no matter how much you may restrict it. Making what should be necessary voluntary, and forcing us to pay for it is, in my opinion, irresponsible, no matter how “low”, “reasonable”, or “one time” the fee.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:53 PM
31, Tod69 Talamasca Says:
“The old method of using a Credit Card to verify should suffice for one simple reason- What MORON of a parent DOESN’T check credit card bills? Tack on a $1 fee or something so they’d see it.”
That’s right. If a parent see that on thier bank statement they damn sure will check into it. I know I do cause it means someone is usuing something of mine to verify identity. and $1 isn’t much to pay to have access to ADULT flagged content or land lots.
Sure it is up to the parents to take responsibility in these matters but it is a need extra step for LL to cover thier behinds. The age verification is a good thing just not the way they are going about it.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:53 PM
Oh for pity’s sake! - WILL YOU PLEASE LISTEN
It has been pointed out on numerous occassions in almost all the blog postings that have and haven’t related to this topic, but have been used to try to get the points across……
According to the TOS we all have to click - SECOND LIFE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR ONLY THOSE OVER 18 YEARS OF AGE ANYWAY…….
Get over this whole segmentation of the grid issue, and just put an age verification on initial sign up.
For those who are current residents, and who have transacted significantly in SL over a period of time age verification should be waived.
As Meta’s excellent data shows, you have the information on how much each resident transacts, and how much that is across all member accounts (so you can get an aggregate of all the alt accounts people run).
Period of time - 3 months or more old, or who have transacted over 10,000 L within the past 3 months (these are off the top of my head, but I’m sure you’re statistics people can come up with a defensible level).
I agree that some form of stronger identification should be required as the current email address only is obviously not enough - but other websites have managed to establish identity with a high rate of success - ask them - do the research - anything…..
BUT DON’T COME BACK TO US HERE UNTIL YOU CAN PROVIDE DETAILED INFORMATION THAT HAS ABSOLUTES, AND NOT THESE WAFTY INCOMPLETE STATEMENTS.
I’m sick of hearing about it all, and you not responding to the same issues that will be raised by your clients over and over and over again.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:54 PM
I’m a small adult I run into enough problem in real life without this.
I am #39 also.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:55 PM
So right Sofia ( 34 )
I can’t give out my social security number, I’m not even allowed to.
And no not by my parents, by the goverment off my country.
I see a lot off people just stay in the PG zone’s, that are crowded now anyway.
Nice, a virtual chat world.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:58 PM
also regarding numbers - I don’t know LL’s numbers on age, but I know from having worked for a couple of online services (one graphical, one not) before, the general proportions of kids vs. adults.
These were services where kids were allowed - and still, just a handful of kids compared to the numbers of kids one sees on the various IM and Myspace-style sites, which are free to register.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:58 PM
I know it claims to be optional now, but in the FAQ to this, question 12 asks “What if Adult Content is not Flagged?” The answer deserves some attention because many residents are still unclear what does and what does not merit an “Adult” flag. This may lead to some residents failing to flag something borderline or others overreacting to something that might not need to be flagged. Without clear lines, these will happen. Is “Adult” being described vaguely so we as residents can determine what is and what isn’t “Adult” as part of our self-policing strategy?
Also, the very rollout of this plan is risky at best. Some people may not trust Linden Labs with the amount and types of personal information that would need to be passed in order to produce age and identity verification. They certainly won’t trust a third-party company that lacks the level of trust granted to LL. This will lead to a slow adoption rate within the community, regardless of how many residents are of a valid age to use the grid. If the Adult flag participation and banning of unverified membership on Adult lands are enforced all at once, it will lead to a sudden and drastic crippling of many mature lands and users. Owners of mature sims will have to mark everything as Adult until the content makers can verify they are clean, or else risk being reported. In the meantime, they will have 0 traffic because no one will have had a chance to validate. Likewise, users will be locked out of their primary hangouts until either they validate or the land owners make those lands available to them again. That kind of a rollout will be disastrous.
Another problem is that many mature sims keep their most questionable stuff in places like skyboxes and allow the average resident near the ground to enjoy something more PG. By setting Adult flags by parcel, the discreetly-placed Adult areas in the sky end up banning people from all content on the ground level as well. This will force either a drastic redesign of sims or a sim-wide Adult flag. It will give those who do not trust the verification system nowhere to go on the grid– unless they find a place where Adult flags are not used. Policing will locate something Adult, then BOOM, policing will appear to fail, and age verification will become a requirement. The unverified residents will not appreciate having to pay for something that is no longer optional, and the verified ones will demand refunds. Some from both categories will simply leave, and cash out everything they can while they do.
The way I see it, Age Verification and Adult flagging need to be rolled out -VERY- carefully if you’re not to totally disrupt the grid. You will need to set a transition period so residents can make appropriate use of the Adult flag, and to give the population time to build up enough age-verified members to maintain stability once it is enforced. You need to encourage collaboration among members to help figure out what kinds of content must be kept from unverified users, and what may pass.
By the way, this rollout of age verification will not change the legal and public relations problems LL is facing, because the ones who commited those offences turned out to be adults who probably had no warning that what they were doing violated the TOS. Most people were totally clueless about the policy on what is being called “age play” because in order to find it, you have to dig pretty deep into sources beyond public announcements and the TOS itself. I have kudos for your enforcement, but contempt for your policymaking and lack of public disclosure.
Furthermore, I am concerned that the next country to believe any particular depiction used in SL is illegal may end up forcing LL to turn its back on a community that would otherwise be openly accepted by the rest of the world. The actions LL is following on that front now has already set a dangerous precedent. If you are going to enforce the laws of all the countries in which you have residents, you will soon find yourself in a tangled mess of contradictions and end up imposing limits that will make Second Life the lowest common denominator of the world.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:58 PM
I understand the need for age verification, but my concern is the handling of residents personal information. I don’t think I would be too comfortable divulging my social security number, or even drivers license number. For those of us who are premium account holders, I think that Linden Labs has enough personal information, ie. PayPal account info and credit card info to determine age. I don’t see why premium account holders should have to pay a fee of any kind. Especially those who have been members as long as I have.
May 10th, 2007 at 11:05 PM
And what about those of us who voluntarily dont drive(I.E. no drivers license…in the us…but i am sure that it is elsewhere in the world) and lack passports…and refuse to give out DOB OR SSN… what then? i have already had attempts to take my identity, and so i will not give out that kind of personal information…what kind of system are you dreaming up…it sounds like an all around bad idea for SL…think carefully on what you do…the technically problems of second life grow worse with every update…and this age verify thing will place SL on the edge of a gaping cliff, poised to fall into oblivion…i know there are others out there thinking this same thing…i enjoy second life, but i am getting sick of the problems this could be the last straw for many out there…myself included
May 10th, 2007 at 11:05 PM
I see my questions have been disregarded again. Very poor handling of this issue.
May 10th, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Oh, sorry… I have something else to add… if we as residents can offer OTHER reliable ways to verify our age and identity that are not through this company you offered, is there any way you can accept THAT? There is more than one way to prove I am who I am, and that I am someone of legal age on the grid. The rest of the world should not have to be shoved into a one-size-fits-all scheme.
May 10th, 2007 at 11:06 PM
Many countries have privacy laws that must be considered!
LL already has many members’ names, addresses and several credit card numbers in file already. LL can use this to verify age already. International licenses, passports and S.I.N. are not needed. There is a liability issues for the misuse and theft of this information.
I encourage members to contact their barrister and inform them of this issue.
Legal teams should take litigation upon any and all evolved with the personal information misuses that is to say-Linden Lab, Employees and any third party used.
Identity thieves have stolen billions yearly; Linden Labs can’t keep PASSWORDS secure how can they keep Passport, Licenses & S.I.N. secure?????
You might wonder why I’m very upset.
I have been a victim of identity theft; I had thousands stolen from me!!!!
I suggest people should be proactive, utilize legal teams find other victims and seek compensation from all involved! Power in Numbers, Power to the People!
May 10th, 2007 at 11:07 PM
“But it was never meant to be used as a proxy for age verification. Since we’re dealing with content and behaviors inappropriate for minors, we need to specifically verify age.”
This doesn’t make sense, this is suppose to be the grid for adults not minors. Or are you trying to say in a round about way that LL intends to merge the teen grid back with the main grid? If not why would an adult only grid need age verification in the first place? And why do you need the most sensitive information an US citizen can give you when all you need to see a porn movie is a driver’s license?
May 10th, 2007 at 11:08 PM
As stated above, age verification is the exucse. It is about having enough personial information that when if you do break your country’s laws as your in SL. you can and will go to jail in RL.
Now do not get me wrong it is not good to break your country laws in SL its a very bad idea and you should not do it. but that is what this is about.
that is the bottom line.
May 10th, 2007 at 11:16 PM
I am sorry but I am NOT interested giving out my SS # in whole or in part. Doesn’t it say that the SS# is not supposed to be used as a form of ID same as a credit card?? I don’t have a passport but if I did I would NOT give info from it over to you. If you want a copy of my DL in my state, I show it when I use my credit card and write a check to every tom dick and harry- if you want a copy then that is fine with me. Should be easy enough if your verifyers are worth anything to check against the state DMV database to verify authenticity. However it does not have my actual address as the listed address as I recently moved and I havn’t bothered to switch it over yet. That’s as far as I am willing to go if it’s FREE. I still have a huge problem with us users having to pay YOU to take and do god knows what with personal information.
That’s about all I have to say….
May 10th, 2007 at 11:21 PM
What happens if someone tries to verify and it says “your details aren’t good enough - please fax in certain documents”?
Who would we be faxing them to? You? Integrity? Aristotle? And if not Linden Labs, then would the data be subject to the same guarantees as it would if Linden Labs had acted as a proxy and passed the data through?
You say that data passed through won’t be stored, but what about if Integrity decides it wants more information - this may be particularly the case with non-US accounts, where large amounts of governmentally stored data aren’t available.
If we are told to fax in original documents, then what guarantee do we have that those faxes will be treated in confidenc