More on Identity Verification
Monday, May 7th, 2007 at 2:25 PM by: daniellindenThe introduction of verified age and identity in Second Life is certainly a momentous change — though many of the comments posted to the announcement have been positive, and this type of verification has long been requested by business owners and content providers as the most direct way to improve trust and safety in Second Life, it’s clear that there are several points of concern that need to be addressed:
Age and identity verification will be completely voluntary. Residents who choose not to verify their identity will have access to all PG and M (Mature) rated regions of Second Life save for those individual parcels expressly identified by their creators as containing adult content. Adult content flags on the Mainland will be parcel-based, meaning that unverified accounts will be restricted only from the specific parcels containing adult material, not from Mature regions in general. ‘Adult Content’ is that which is overtly, graphically, or explicitly sexual in nature or intensely violent.
Linden Lab will not store any specific, identifying information. We’ll keep less exact information as a way to allow Residents, if they should so choose, to share verified aspects of their identity with others in Second Life — ie, not an exact date of birth, but an age (over 30) and not a specific address, but a city and country. Such sharing will, of course, be completely voluntary. Our verification provider will assess the consistency of the provided information and return a match code; at that point, a Resident becomes verified. The entire process takes less than two minutes, and will be available internationally. Our verification provider will only use information to provide a match code.
Age and identity verification fees will be assessed only once, at the point of verification — there will be no ongoing monthly or maintenance fees associated with verification. A mechanism will be provided to extend a successful verification to multiple accounts. Premium accounts will pay a very nominal fee; less than L$10, perhaps just $L1. Basic users will be able to access the service at a higher, though still one time, price.
Age and identity verification will replace ‘Payment Information’ in-world. Credit cards do not provide an adequate means of age and identity verification, making real and robust age and identity verification vital. Land owners will be free to allow or disallow access to their owned parcels based on this verified or unverified status.
Linden Lab is committed to enabling the safest and most enjoyable experience possible in Second Life. The introduction of age and identity provides Residents with new tools to determine how they interact with the world, how the content they create is accessed, and allow for a new level of trust within in-world relationships.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:29 PM
I still don’t understand though, Do I still have to give a Drivers License that I don’t have because I live in New York, and most people walk?
I have no need for a License, because I don’t own a car, but thats beside all of this. I own land that does have some adult activity on it, do I need to verify myself even though I provided you with a Credit card and pay you 10 bucks plus extra land fee’s?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:34 PM
This has been long needed, however, 90% of the adult/mail grid now possesses sexual content. Those who will not use the verification method, like I, will have very little to nothing to do or go to. (i typically avoid “cyber sex” anyway. You may loose quite a few paying members with this latest installment.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:35 PM
I think this is going to be awesome! I can’t wait till it is in place.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:35 PM
Even moreso, if I don’t verify myself does that mean I can’t use my adult parcel!?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:35 PM
If my credit card information is already being used, and “Credit cards do provide an adequate means of age and identity verification…”, why would I be charged an additional fee to verify what is already verified?
No way!
May 7th, 2007 at 2:36 PM
Thats a more detailed explanation. But what about islands? Does the entire island have to be labled adult/not-adult?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:36 PM
I’m less concerned about what LL stores and more concerned about the third-party company LL has hired to handle this.
Though you haven’t directly stated it elsewhere, I’ve heard that the company is Integrity Inc, a division of Aristotle International, which is a political databasing company that exists to compile metrics for use by PACs and other companies willing to pay.
Where’s the statement that Integrity won’t give my social security # to Aristotle? Where’s the statement that I won’t go into a large database for verifying as capable of viewing adult content in SL? How do I know I won’t have this turn up in a background check?
These are the assurances we want you to make, beyond what LL will do, and you have failed.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:37 PM
And exactly how will you check? What information are you going to request?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:37 PM
My question is this….how much is this one time fee for basic accounts and what exactly will we be required to show as proof of age? I don’t want to know what may be required. I want to know what WILL be required.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:37 PM
Daniel.. I am not against age verification in and of itself.
The problem is I feel, the level of intrusiveness in asking for a SS number (or national insurance in my case).
Personally, I’d be far happier paying a lawyer to write a notarised letter, and have that as my verification, more expensive for me, but certianally less intrusive.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:37 PM
Ok, this has been voiced a few times before… You guys keep saying a “higher” price for basic/free accounts, but are skirting the issue of how much higher of a price?
Are you talking, like 25L$-50L$, or are you talking 100L$-1000L$? As a basic account (In after the basic free, but before the CC check was removed), I need to know this, so I can ballance my vendor costs (and possibly remove them) to save my meager (and usualy only) 50L$ stipend I still get so I can afford to go home (as my homepoint is a Mature sim that will have to go to the Adult level when this is implimented)
May 7th, 2007 at 2:38 PM
What will be the difference between PG, M, and Adult land and content(particularly between M and Adult)?
Will only U.S. and UK customers have access to age verification?
What will happen to the adult content containing mainland and island land currently owned by people who will not be able to age-verify?
I’m much in favor of age verification, but not this way, and not with the company who’s going to do it. It’s much too intrusive.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:38 PM
Will you be able to provide in writing from Integrity Services, not LL that this information will not be data based ? This is the main concern I have based on their affiliations.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:38 PM
Yay, I don’t like how basic accounts have to pay more though.
Can you please tell us what information will be needed to verify?
Also Will anyone else be able to see where we’re from, our age, etc?
Will It Be In our Profiles and available to everyone or only linden lab?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:38 PM
Of course LL won’t store the info, the 3rd party will.
For those interested, the VERY politically driven company is http://www.aristotle.com/
May 7th, 2007 at 2:38 PM
“Credit cards do provide an adequate means of age and identity verification, making real and robust age and identity verification vital.”
What?
If they provide an adequate means of age verification then what is this all for?
Sometimes your policies are as lacking as your proof-reading.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:40 PM
Age and identity verification will replace ‘Payment Information’ in-world. Credit cards do provide an adequate means of age and identity verification, making real and robust age and identity verification vital. Land owners will be fee to allow or disallow access to their owned parcels based on this verified or unverified status.
Am I missing a point here?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:40 PM
Oh, and furthermore, what alternatives are you offering for those who aren’t interested in dealing with a third party? You’re not providing any new information at all and are just reiterating what already was posted over the weekend.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:40 PM
I don’t have a problem with verification as a whole just the use of a 3rd party. So much so that I don’t want to get verified because of a 3rd party which is an option as you suggest except I would never be allowed to 12 of my 14 in world vendors (due to the other content available in those malls) if I chose to stand by my beliefs. Not much of a choice really.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:40 PM
“Credit cards do provide an adequate means of age and identity verification”
um does this mean that if we provide CC info we won’t need to use the age verification service? is it only for those that do not use CC (say paypal instead) or will it be required by anyone wanting to access ‘adult’ areas?
You really need to clarify all of this to us, i am sure that when people raise there concerns its mostly regarding non-payment info people. i want to see age verify come to sl, because i want sl to be protected from censors. But i think its overkill to have premium members prove they are over 18 again.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:42 PM
“Land owners will be fee to allow or disallow access to their owned parcels based on this verified or unverified status.”
I think you mean “free” not “fee”.
Glad you cought the “do”/”do not” typo, that was kinda a biggy!
May 7th, 2007 at 2:43 PM
Please answer more of the questions that were sent to you.
How do you plan to deal with residents in other countries whose information can not be accepted by Integrity? What options do they have? In some countries it is illegal to give out a National ID number unless it is employment or banking related.
Why is it that only mainland sims can parcel seperate sections as adult and not adult? Is there a way to allow island owners to do the same?
Can we get assuranced in writing from the Integrity company that they will not use our information in any way and will not add it to any of their parent company, Aristotle’s, voter mailing lists?
Again, many people WANT age verification… I know I do… we simply want answers as well. This blog post does not give us the information we need to make an informed decision as to whether or not to be verified and how to manage our lands.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:43 PM
As others have indicated, a critical concern of ours that this blog entry does not address is whether Integrity will be expressly forbidden from sharing the gathered data with their parent company, Aristotle International.
I think if the Lindens can answer that concern and lay our fears to rest, this move will not see nearly the opposition and paranoia it’s seeing right now.
What guarantees do we have that Integrity will not share our personal information? Will it be in the contract LL signs with them, or is this one of those “trust us” moments?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:43 PM
Exactly what will be stored/given out? I don’t want some random escort that I told to **** off, to know who I am?! ~.~
May 7th, 2007 at 2:43 PM
@ Halogen and Jayne
Sorry - there was a typo in the original post - which has since been changed to read: “Credit cards do not provide an adequate means of age and identity verification, making real and robust age and identity verification vital.”
May 7th, 2007 at 2:43 PM
Unfortunately, these answers have not clarified matters. The company being used is still unannounced despite being rumored as Aristotle/Integrity, the fees have not been announced, and no new information has really been provided here. I am at the forefront of a concerned residents group, which at present, numbers 151 at last count. This is after one day of activity. By comparison, the largest group in Second Life currently numbers 2,780 after several months of operation. I strongly urge that you meet with me or a representative, either inworld, or over a cup of Barefoot Coffee (Yes, I am in the bay area), Daniel.
We’ve met before at FC 2006, and if I remember correctly, possibly at Anthrocon 2005 (I don’t quite remember which batch of Lindens visited me and the FurNation staff there). I know you’re intelligent, and one of the responsible, open-eared Lindens. Please meet with us to address questions more directly, and to understand that residents find this move very unwelcome, particularly given the current circumstances.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:43 PM
Daniel:
You say that LL will not store this information, the question is will the company you are using for this, Integrity, keep our data? This company also *sells* such data and we want some assurance that what we provide will not be used in such a way.
Can you *please* be more specific as to what constitutes “adult”? What falls under the category of “sexually explicit”? Because there is a lot of confusion and concern about this. We *don’t know* unless you tell us. People are afraid that just selling skins will get them in trouble or having a gay related sim, with no porn at all.
And how are you going to make people comply with this flagging? Is simply getting an AR from another resident enough to be flagged or will the Lindens investigate before punishing people falsely accused?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:45 PM
For those who read this posting you must remember that you can now buy prepaid Visa or Master Cards where there is no age and identity verification.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:45 PM
Will they still be able to cam into my parcel?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:45 PM
[...] UPDATE : The Linden response on the Official Blog: [...]
May 7th, 2007 at 2:45 PM
I am all for age-verification, but I don’t understand something. Why isn’t a credit card adequate for age verification? After all, credit cards are not issued to minors! And how many minors own an island on the main grid? I own an island on the main grid, and I’m decidedly NOT a minor! You have sufficient information already on file about me to ascertain this, and maintain my adult-level access, and requiring that I jump through a new hoop to keep adult-level access is unacceptable to me.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:47 PM
You guys still dont get it. As much as this is a nice thing your going about it all wrong. Many of us who provided information like credit card and other wise should be allowed the verification. I love it how you word yourselfs though such as when you say linden labs wont give out information but how does that help if some one else is doing it? And also you guys are very keen on the premium amount being stated but i guess your pondering on how high to make free users have to dig in there wallets for the payment.
Age Verification: No Thank you >: )
May 7th, 2007 at 2:48 PM
I’m not so concerned with the fee as many people(proabably $10-$20), but as to what info will be gathered/stored. There have been MANY leaks all over the internet, and it’d be nice if we could at least know who we’re going to be giving this sensitive information to.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:48 PM
Correction. Make that 230 members now. The count of 151 was taken roughly five hours ago. Please take note that a very large number of residents are concerned. The primary questions we would like to see answered are as follows:
1) What exact agency are you using to facilitate verification.
2) What are the *exact* fees for both account types. No nominal figures, please, no ballparks. Exact numbers, please.
3) Exactly what assurance can you provide us about both the security of this system, AND its validity in an international setting? Legality questions have been raised about having to verify through a company which does not suscribe to local data-protection laws in other nations.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:48 PM
What are the rules for private island owners ? If there is only ONE adult content provider on a private island, does the entire private island have to be flagged as Adult ? Thank you in advance. Also, can we have some evidence on how trustworthy this company Aristotle/Integrity is ?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:48 PM
“Our verification provider, Integrity Services, will only use information to provide a match code.”
It is possible that this phrase answers the “what can Integrity do with the information” question. But it is ambiguous. Clarifying that ambiguity will be helpful.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:49 PM
As Daniel mentioned in his above blog: “Our verification provider, Integrity Services, will only use information to provide a match code.”
The information provided will ONLY be used to verify identity, it will not be sold or shared.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:49 PM
Can you better define “Adult Content”? Does that include skin sellers? How soon will this verification be put in place? Will island owners be held criminally responsible for content on their islands that is adult or even illegal, even though their island is not flagged adult, for instance when someone shows up on their island and proceeds to create adult content in the form of spamming chat, wearing prim “bits”, etc.? Will anyone be reimbursed for their purchase of land on mature sims that suddenly become adult flagged, when they are not able themselves to be age verified (international customers, for example, who are of age, but not verifiable)? There are a lot of hard questions that need to be asked, and the blog is not sufficient for asking and getting good answers.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:49 PM
Also will you please explain exactly what information we will be asked to provide to Integrity? Is it only name, birthdate, location… or is it drivers license numbers, social security numbers? Again we need to know how much we will be asked to give before we can decide whether or not to be verified. You’re not just dealing with people who want to access adult content, there are people who run businesses who are relying on this information to form their own business plans.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:49 PM
My big concern is that I have already verified with LL; I have a teen on the teen grid. If my present level of authentication is not sufficient to guarantee that I’m an adult on the adult grid, how can they certify that any teen is in fact a teen?
Basically this is all tantamount to an admission that they have no real confidence in their current security model; and by extension that the non-teen grid is rife with teens who gained fraudulent access. Whats worse, this new security mechanism is no better, except inasmuch as it shifts legal liablity away from linden labs.
For me, this ‘issue update’ satisfies none of my concerns. In fact it raises further concerns, as my questions about this policy have gone unanswered. What of the move to self governance that was blogged about a week or so ago? Why not grandfathering of certain accounts?
Why pretend we’ve no reason to be concerned when your essentially asking us to pay to go on record as saying we’re engaging in ‘adult’ activity?
C’mon, people…
Laz
May 7th, 2007 at 2:50 PM
What happens if a 512 qm parcel has adult content enabled? you are able to move your camera through blocked areas and you would be able to see the content that way. How will this be prevented?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:50 PM
@19
ok and why don’t they? you have to be over 18 to have a credit card therefore if i have one then i am over 18, if i am not over 18 i am breaking the law by committing fraud. i am really annoyed about this as i wanted age verification in sl, but now you have gone overkill with it.
i would rather have the free accouts system removed than have this age verification imposed on all.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:50 PM
First, SL should automatically keep ANY unverified user from gambling, being able to remove all clothing (unverified users should not be able to take off pants), etc.
But this is a great first step. Can’t wait, love the idea, love that we can now keep teenagers off our land when they shouldn’t be there, love that we can now know we only have adults in areas where only adults should be.
For those of you who do not want to verify, for whatever reason, good luck to ya. Sorry you disagree with the methods used to prove you are an adult, but the only ones agreeing with your position, is the crowd of people that are actually teenagers and can’t prove they are adults. Preach on, then serve milk to the crowd, as they are probably all thirsty.
Most land owners will immediately make sure verified adults have access only.
See ya when you verify.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:50 PM
well i am a legal adult and you guys have file on me when i registered
a long time ago and don’t take this the wrong way but i’ve been a adult since i turned 18 a long time ago.i can supply the age for this and i’m not a minor because i am over 18 and stuff
May 7th, 2007 at 2:50 PM
I am 100% for this whole age thing. I have experiences with people claiming to be of legal age and you suddenly find out.. big shock.. they aren’t. NOT in SL mind you, at least that I know of as of yet, but in other venues of entertainment where adult content is.
However, I, like others have stated, am a bit concerned about this ‘higher one time fee’ that has yet to be told. I don’t expect it to be $100.00’s of real dollars, but I do expect it to be in that range in Linden dollars. If premium accounts are paying between 1L and 10L, then I expect to pay between 10L and 100L. What is discouraging to me is that no where has Linden Labs given this information. I personally feel that you should not be posting prices for one, if you aren’t going to post them for the other. It kinda makes me feel as if I am less of a resident for not having a premium account. I am not saying that I am above or anything, but I also feed quite a bit of real money into this game, even if I don’t pay them a monthly fee on top of that.
As far as the information that will be held. I am only concerned that my personal information not be sold to a fourth party and so on. I am concerned that our personal information may go on mailing lists and what not. If you can provide written proof or a promise or some such thing that our info will not be resold to other companies for mailing lists and junk mail crap, then no problem. If not, then I am afraid LL will have more problems on their hands from angry residents than they really know what to do with.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
If you look at http://www.aristotle.com the 3rd party verification company-you’ll see it started in 2007, looks like anybody with a computer could have created that site. I don’t see any stamp of approval on it either.
I’m all for protecting the children but I am very uncomfortable with giving my SSN to this company that has only been around since this year.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
“As Daniel mentioned in his above blog: “Our verification provider, Integrity Services, will only use information to provide a match code.”
The information provided will ONLY be used to verify identity, it will not be sold or shared.”
Ok, but will it be data based by Integrity? Also what are the forms of ID going to be and the fee for a basic please ?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
@23
Andromeda, that’s not true. In fact credit cards ARE issued to minors as low as age 13. Case #1: The parent who gives their child a credit card, as per allowed by Visa and Mastercard. Case #2: an emancipated minor can apply for and get a credit card, as they are considered legally an adult.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
I would still like to have my question answered, BUT I guess LL wants to just keep us hanging and wait to the last minute to let those with a basic account know how much they will have to pay. What will that Fee be? You’ve already said how much a premium member will have to pay, what about the rest of us? And what information exactly, will be required to obtain such age verification?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
Voluntary? Then what is the point? I thought the whole idea was to get minors off the grid, but if it is voluntary, I can’t see it doing anything at all. If I was a minor hoping to sneak on the grid, I sure as hell wouldn’t voluntarily admit I was violating the TOS.
So what IS the point? Just showing a public “face” of being concerned about minors on the grid?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:52 PM
Jeska Linden Says:
May 7th, 2007 at 2:49 PM PDT
“As Daniel mentioned in his above blog: “Our verification provider, Integrity Services, will only use information to provide a match code.”
The information provided will ONLY be used to verify identity, it will not be sold or shared.”
But it will be *stored* by this company, correct? Will we get an agreement from them that this information will never be used with their other business, Aristotle?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:52 PM
“The information provided will ONLY be used to verify identity, it will not be sold or shared.”
Thank you Jeska for your clarity on this point. It is much appreciated.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:52 PM
Question: Age verification: fine, understood. As I’ve noted on the blogs, I have already verified this by using PayPal to buy my Linden dollars.
Identity verfication: why is this required? By anyone, for anything?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:54 PM
@35
in what country? the states? we talking about the rest of the world, banks wont give a credit card (visa, mastercard etc) to under 18’s in the uk, i know this from experience, they get a atm card, thats it.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:54 PM
So our choices are to either limit access to just people with money or censor ourselves needlessly?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:54 PM
Jeska, can we get that in writing, as in part of the TOS?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:55 PM
#28 Jeska… you never said they wouldn’t store it!
May 7th, 2007 at 2:55 PM
@32
Again, Jayne, you don’t HAVE to legally be 18 to have a credit card. all it takes is parental permission and a willing bank to have a credit card as low as 13. (I know, I looked into it with my own son who’s about to turn 13), that and emancipated minors can get them legally as well.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:56 PM
>> “As Daniel mentioned in his above blog: “Our verification provider, Integrity Services, will only use information to provide a match code.”
>> The information provided will ONLY be used to verify identity, it will not be sold or shared.”
That doesn’t say they won’t store it or reuse it themselves. Where’s it in writing that our information won’t be used for any purpose beyond checking age?
And again, what about alternative methods direct with LL for those who still aren’t comfortable? A lot of us would be willing to scan and notarize ID to fax over to you verses dealing with a third party organization heavily invested in politics.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:57 PM
Halogen, a small correction if I may…
daniel said this:
Credit cards do not provide an adequate means of age and identity verification
but in reading you’ve missed the ‘not’
here in the UK my credit card provider will allow me to give an additional card to someone as young as 13. In letters, THIRTEEN. It may be different in the states, but remember over 65% of LL users are outside the states. Credit cards are not the all and end all of age verification that many seem to think.
As for the procedures… I think LL will ensure that if it doesn’t happen (they will have a contract with the company which will stipulate what may and may not happen to the data) after all if all sl users suddenly started getting contacted and added to lists etc without their solicitation it would be, without doubt, the downfall of sl, there would be such a massive churn of clients, and such huge publicity that it would not survive.
That’s a good incentive to make sure it doesn’t happen. We have strict laws here on what can and can’t be done with data, doesn’t the state where the company resides have similiar laws?
May 7th, 2007 at 2:58 PM
You don’t have to be over 18 to have a credit card. Visa and Mastercard and such sell “gift cards” which are acceptable online and require no proof whatsoever. Also, you could be borrowing mommy’s credit card, with or without her knowledge. CCs are not enough.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:58 PM
Though there may be variation from country to country, in the United States verification will require a name, address, date of birth, and the last four digits of a Social Security Number. Internationally, most Residents will be asked for a name, address, date of birth, and a passport or national ID number. In some cases, additional details — like a county name in Ireland or a middle initial in Mexico– will be requested.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:58 PM
Thank you for starting to answer the many questions that us the customers have. The verification is indeed something we have been wanting. It is how you announce and implement things that are worrying.
The Integrity system if BudTV.comBudTV.com is anything to go by is not checking anything. I can verify with any name any zip, any birthdate as long as it is above 21. So I understand that their offer of insurance is a bug pull. I can find no guarantee or statement by this company to assure that they will not add the information they receive through the verification of SL users to their Super Voter List profile system. Are there assurances for protection of data for those who do use ther real info?
Now there is Mature and Adult. where does one end and one start? What is “explicitly sexual in nature”? This is a huge question and an all but impossible definition and very individual. The poor cyote in road runner has most violent happenings and that is “G”. So what is “intensely violent”? Sim and land owners need this information to understand the implications.
Sims have to choose for the entire island? No sub division of the sim as far as Adult and Mature or PG?
If the system integrity is going to use is actually checking against records, how do Canadian and others who’s countries to not allow for this?
So many questions. We need a forum where lindens answer questions directly from the customers. This blogg comment part will be full with in an hour with no feed back and cutting out any who were not able to get here in time before the locks came down.
We need Open Letter Project answered instead of ignored.
It would be nice to hear about this Governance Team Chadrick Linden mentioned.
Avenues to get answers are blocked. We try, we try but there is no where.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:59 PM
“Adult content flags on the Mainland will be parcel-based”
I’m a bit confused by this… Is it different on private sims?
I’m building for a friend who has bought a new sim, on which he’s planning to sell both PG and very “adult” content. We’re also planning to build a mini town on the same sim which will be strictly PG in nature. Is the whole sim supposed to be flagged as Adult or can we just divide the land and flag each parcels accordingly? I’d appreciate some clarification on this before I further the development as I may need to drastically change the plan.
Personally I don’t want to be forced to verify just to be able to enter the sim and fix a thing or two.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:59 PM
@ Seven
Children could also be borrowing Mommy or Daddy’s drivers license too.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:00 PM
I still don’t understand why just enforcing the current policy when it is found someone did not give correct information when they signed up is not enough. Enforcement is enough for SL to not be libel. I also still contend that any child can get the necessary information to satisfy any requirement thought to be only available from an adult. I’ve know parents who would give away anything to shut up their kids and keep them happy. That doesn’t include the kids who don’t care and just steal the information. As for credit cards, I know that is easily gotten around but our wonderful children.
After reading this update I find the change acceptable. I was actually unaware there was a difference between mature and adult. I’ve never seen an adult parcel to my knowledge. Knowing some people don’t drive or have passports or for that matter credit cards, this new process makes more sense. Now no one needs to know how old I really am when I say I’m older than dirt. Thanks for adjusting your process to something more realistic.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:00 PM
@44,
in what country?
I’m from the UK
as i said i tried to get my account sorted when i was 17, i had a job and regular income, and parental permission, but the bank refused because i was 17.
i am now 18 and have a visa card that i use, i will not send my Passport info, NI number or drivers licience out of my countries data protection unless it is with me personally.
this game isn’t just a US game, infacct i believe most of the players are outwith the US so the data protection and different rules have to be taken into account
May 7th, 2007 at 3:00 PM
I think age verfication is needed and is a feature useful to all Second Life residents.
You have stated that Linden Labs will not store any of the verification information, and that is good, however it appears that the information will not only be submitted to Linden Labs. I would like to see that assurance as to the verification provider as well.
My identifying information, stored in large national databases, has been stolen or misplaced twice and it is not an amusing experience.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:01 PM
My last comment was more of a question than a comment - I don’t know what the answer is, and I, like everyone else who wishes to be verified is about to submit these items of data.. so I would be interested to know the laws relating to data protection in the relevant area.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:02 PM
“Credit cards do provide an adequate means of age and identity verification, making real and robust age and identity verification vital.”
Does anyone have any idea what this sentence means? On one hand it seems to state that LL recognise that having credit card details on file are sufficient to verify age & identity yet on the other… well what is the other? the remainder of the sentence makes little sense and I hope that someone from LL can confirm whether CC details are indeed going to be considered as sufficient proof of age & identity?
Also are they suggesting that we submit our CC details to another party for verification or are they going to waive this requirement for those accounts already verified by CC?
Certainly I for one will not be going to furnish any other information beyond that already submitted to LL for payment purposes particulary as the name of the processing company is very unclear.
Googling for “Integrity Services” provides no clear results and hopefully LL will let us know the full name of the company they are contracting with so that residents may satisfy themselves as to the identity and trustworthyness of the processing company and which data protection laws they operate under.
Have they never heard of identity theft?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:02 PM
“name, address, date of birth, and the last four digits of a Social Security Number.” - daniellinden
Scary thing is that is all you need to run a credit check o.O
May 7th, 2007 at 3:03 PM
Why do you need to know our address? Of what relevance is that?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:03 PM
Why can’t they just do this to -new- accounts and not to old? Seriously, all LL seems content to do is roll on with their plans despite protest for all sorts of reasons.
If it is going to be put in place, which is seems it is because Linden isn’t going to listen to their customers (which is a shame beyond words), why not try to find some sort of compromise?
Why not just force verification on new accounts? A lot of us have more than proved our age to the company. Why should all of us be subject to a change that effects us ill?
It will be voluntary, yes. But it will still effect business and private islands. You can’t call something voluntary when it will be mandatory to get to specific parts of the grid, can you?
The fact that you limit your contact with us to blogs is sad and rather disconcerting.
Why not make sure that minors can not access our grid rather than inconveniencing the adults and forcing our hand to give you more information than we feel that you are privileged?
It doesn’t matter what you do LL, if a teen wants to take a credit card and forge an identity to get in world, they could still do the same by digging a little deeper into their mother’s purse or father’s pocket book.
And last I knew about credit cards: You have to be 18 years or older to obtain one. Funny that. This shows a great lack of trust in those of us who are LEGALLY on the servers. This isn’t protecting the children, this is protecting Linden Labs.
Find a way to do this that doesn’t put your paying customers out. Your relations are already strained enough with the population as is: No more jargon, no more sticking to blog posts (commenting only to 1 out of 75 valid comments is not a good track record), and no more mis-representing the wants of your supporters while claiming it to be for the greater good.
If anything:
*No payment at all for verifying age
*Verify necessary only for new accounts
Seriously, people are unhappy and it shouldn’t be so easy for your company to ignore it.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:05 PM
“Internationally, most Residents will be asked for a name, address, date of birth, and a passport or national ID number.”
I’m in the UK, and I don’t have a passport or any form of national ID apart from my NI number, which (as the card exclaims quite prominently) is not proof of identity. How now, brown Linden cow?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:07 PM
@52
Look at what @46 said:
“here in the UK my credit card provider will allow me to give an additional card to someone as young as 13. In letters, THIRTEEN. It may be different in the states, but remember over 65% of LL users are outside the states. Credit cards are not the all and end all of age verification that many seem to think.”
I’d say it’s your bank, not the credit card provider. Visa and MC worldwide will allow as low at 13. It’s up to the individual bank, not the credit card company.
and I’m in the US btw. I know of friends in Denmark, Ireland, etc, who had credit cards as low as 14, so it’s not europe in general restricting it, it’s the bank in particular.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:07 PM
This is the wrong approach. The Lindens are supposed to be keeping the underaged off of the grid entirely, not placing stopgap measures to limit them once they get here. This is saying “We’ve failed, time to contain the damage”.
As for this “nominal fee” to become “age verified” to be able to view “adult content”… this sounds remarkably like the Grid is a network of porn sites that LL is going to charge you to see. Even better, the places on the grid that ARE ‘adult’ in nature are placed there by residents, for residents. What business does LL, a third party in this situation, have charging a “nominal fee” of its own to permit access to those places?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:07 PM
I Feel That The Social Security Number Part Is Going To Stop A Lot Of People From Doing This, I would Happily Verify That I am of age if i didn’t have to give my Social security number out over the internet. Sorry, just not digging it.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:07 PM
You offered no new information in this post. It’s 6 paragraphs long and still does not address our concerns.
You are not listening.
You are doing TWO SEPARATE THINGS here, both objectionable:
1. You are banning me from areas marked “mature”. If I’m in-world, I’ve clicked on the “I’m over 18″ button like any other mature website. I’ve told you I’m old enough, but even if my word isn’t “good enough”, and you have my payment info. Don’t bother me further.
2. There is no way that I owe anybody this level of information for validation purposes. You will see neither my passport, nor my driver’s license, nor any other personal information. Neither will this security company with whom I have no prior relationship. Asking me for it is downright rude, like asking for urine.
People are asking you to reel in the unverifieds. You didn’t need to do anything like this to address that issue. This is profoundly disrespectful of Linden Lab.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:08 PM
What about those of us that have approved adult status on the Teen Grid. We have a full background check on file with LL. Do we have to verify our age again?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:10 PM
I Also would like to state, I Agree 100% With 56
May 7th, 2007 at 3:10 PM
Well, as someone who intimately familiar with the topic of security, information and verification, I have to say that the reasoning behind this particular approach is greatly flawed. I have worked with Sony, EA and one other enterprise interactive game giant and have never heard of such a method being used. At best the true reason as it has been presented is obtuse. Furthermore, after doing MY RESEARCH into Aristotle I FIND that your reasons may bend more toward the convenient and the personal. I myself am for age verification but in a more industry adopted standard manner. I have in the past supported most decisions LL has made and did not listen to the rants of the masses because I knew most were the opinions of the misinformed but this time it is I myself who is ranting…and I am informed. Besides, I also do not like Aristotle because they took over the Burrito Brothers shop :(. Please find another way.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:11 PM
I am still interested to know exactly what this higher fee for basic accounts is going to be.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:11 PM
Right now this has no effect on me but this one I am not sure if I like it or not.
So I cant go to Jesse’s cowboy club anymore. Wasnt there for the girls just for the music and the fact it is usually low lag and havent been bombarded by raciest comments. Guess Ill have to put up with the other laggy clubs that are more popular.
When this becomes mandatory for all residents now there is a problem.
I am like others the more of yourself you put on the web the more open you are to identity theft.
How many of us got that letter from the veterans dept. here in the USA about our personal information including our SSN was leaked when that laptop ended up being stolen loaded with all this information?
Before any one says well…
This was the US government that did this and i am sure their security protocol is much higher than this 3rd party company.
lets just hope with all this extra revenue that LL makes from these 3rd party companies they are bringing in goes into fixing the problems on the grid.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:11 PM
Will we be able to pay with US Dollars in our Secondlife.com accounts?
I.e.; sell Lindens to cover the cost and have it transferred from our sl account to the service provider?
Thank you for the MAJOR clarification regarding parcel based flagging. This just cleared up a HUGE amount of trepidation.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:11 PM
All countries data protection terms should be taken into consideration. I am certainly not happy at the thought of providing my national insurance number that could well be harvested by this third party company that you reference too. Whilst I do think the age varification idea is a good concept, I do feel it requires a little more justification and research before it is implemented, otherwise I dont feel many people are going to go for it. After all, would you be happy submitting your information to a company that could be harvesting the details, especially one as politically driven as the one you have chosen? Maybe you could choose different agencies for different countries there by appriciating each countries individual data protection requirements?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:12 PM
@the complainers:
Why do you guys even bother complaining? Do you even know what you’re complaining about?
You think people are really going to feel sorry for your one lost Linden dollar? If you can’t come up with or get a friend to loan you ONE LINDEN DOLLAR, you’re probably not contributing anything to our community here anyway and nobody is going to miss you. Just because you joined when accounts were free doesn’t mean you have a constitutional right to free content forever.
And the paranoia? You think the FBI has nothing better to do than sit around like “oh look here agent johnson… this person MIGHT have access to adult content on the internet. this is an entirely unique situation. clearly a criminal. lets roll.” You think if they REALLY wanted to bust you they wouldn’t be able to produce all the evidence they needed? You do realise that every website you go to can get access to your personal informaion via your IP address, right? You realise that milllions of peoples names and PHONE NUMBERS are available in something called a “phone book”, right?
Some things are worth complaining about. This isn’t one of them. Nobody’s listening to you.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:12 PM
As peeple asked in the first post.. im burning to know who this verification companie is, Still baffled how this is gona work.. Why not tell us who this 3th company is.. and is this post gona be capped at 100 again?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:12 PM
@61…. “Asking me for it is downright rude, like asking for urine.”
I’ll give then urine… just not in a cup
May 7th, 2007 at 3:12 PM
Hm, I joined SL a long time ago, when EVERYONE was required to create a new user with a credit card. When that was stopped and the free accounts were created, allowing anyone and everyone to create an alt or new account, we did see an enormous increase in the number of kids hopping around to our clubs and businesses. I reported on this every time it was assumed or assured through questioning the kid to their real age, many were only 12 or 13 years old and visiting the strip clubs and adult stores. So in theory, an age verification is a good thing, but most other online businesses DO consider a credit card verification the equilalent of age verification. I just do not like volunteering social security number and drivers license to play in a game where I wish to remain largely anonymous. This new age verification should only be required for people who are not payment verified (credit card), and age verification should not be required for parcels which one or one’s group (who they are an owner of) owns.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:12 PM
Googling brings up lots of “Integrity Services”, can you confirm which company it actually is so we can perform Integrity checks on them to decide if they are trustworthy enough with our critical ID data?
How much will it be for basic account holders?
And when and where will you have a list of what will be required for each country?
Further can you be more specific on adult content? If it’s things only adults can access, that should include bars, drinking, gambling, owning weapons etc lol
May 7th, 2007 at 3:12 PM
Cool, so I don’t have to make my island “adult content” if I don’t want, right? Excellent.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:14 PM
After googling trying to find info on integrity services I could not find the company. However I did find this company. I assume they are the one that is going to be used by LL.
http://integrity.aristotle.com/
May 7th, 2007 at 3:14 PM
I would definately like to know what the requirement will be in the UK.
There is no national ID number in the UK. There is the National Insurance number but the back of the Numbercard explicitly states it is not to be used for identity verification. There is the DVLA (driving license) number, but for many older people that’s just their last name, initial, and birth date anagrammed. And putting passport numbers on the internet? No.. just.. no.
It has also been posited on the forums that the business of requiring a national ID number was mandated by LL, not Aristotle. Is this true?
May 7th, 2007 at 3:14 PM
As an entrepeneur who makes her *entire* RL living in SL, I am understandably concerned here. I’m all for preventing minors from viewing adult material, but the fact is that many, many, many, many people are not going to want to hand over personal details to the Lindens or a Third Party, regardless of assurances.
This is going to be horrible for business and content creation in SL - and not just adult business and content, either.
If you take into account all the European and global SL users who aren’t required to have a driver’s license or a passport, and all the US people who will be skittish about handing over private details, I’ll guess (conservatively) that 50% of the people in SL won’t or can’t verify.
Well do you honestly think those 50% who suddenly can’t get into adult areas or have adult fun are going to just hang around anyway, shopping for clothing or or skins instead?
Not remotely. What good is a skin if nobody will see it? What use are clothes if you’re not trying to impress the guy/gal you’re interested in (and presumably go make out somewhere later)? What good is a sword if you can’t go to aan RP sim to fight someone with it?
We’re going to watch incomes go down dramatically. And I realize, I’m in the minority of people who rely on this place to survive - but guess what? If I leave SL because I can’t survive here, my products leave as well. And that goes for all the other designers and content creators who can’t make a living in here once people get discouraged or bored because of their limited exploration options in SL.
And what about the ‘casual exploration’ that we all did when we first got into SL? You know what I’m talking about - someone told you about SL, you were skeptical, you logged in and wandered around and could take it or leave it until BOOM - something hooked you. Maybe it was a vampire biting someone, maybe it was someone firing a cool gun, maybe is was an amazingly hot girl/guy, maybe it was a sensually animated poseball. And then you were IN, like hooked, and that starte