Introducing: Estate Level Governance
Friday, April 20th, 2007 at 12:42 PM by: Chadrick LindenGood day! Many moons back, a portion of Linden’s Community Team developed a project meant to deliver better local Governance control to the grid. What does this mean? Many things. For starters: The Estate Level Abuse program which we’ve been Beta Testing since January. This was a test designed to allow estate owners to receive and resolve their own abuse reports in the method in which they best see fit. No longer subject to Linden’s ideas on how abuse could be handled, estate owners in the test had abuse reports filed on their land sent directly to their email.
Almost 200 regions participated and over 10 Estate Owners were involved in receiving reports. Owners were able to delegate to estate managers how they liked. The response has been good. We’ve received many suggestions on how to improve the program and in the future we plan on releasing the program to the entire grid. So what does this all mean? Read Below:
In time, as Linden builds out more Premium Estate Services, these services will become available to the residents of Second Life in one form or another. As Linden uses the same tools on the mainland and develops out the Second Life experience our way, residents will have the option of resolving issues their way, or opting-in to the way Linden runs the Second Life grid. The community team firmly believes that the residents of Second Life should create and enjoy their own experience, and is dedicated to delivering that promise. For other changes the Governance Team is making: Please see Daniel’s Blog post here: Changes in Abuse Report Resolution .
We do not have an exact date as to when Estate Level Abuse will be rolled out to the grid, but will keep everyone updated as we find out more. I’ve left comments on for this post so if you have questions, ask them. Please make sure they are related to this post. 
April 20th, 2007 at 12:47 PM
I love this idea, and wouldn’t mind at all seeing this take place of Linden abuse reports on private islands.
It would also pass some accountability on to the larger land barons such as Ansche Chung, thereby reducing the Lindens’ load and also not be a burden to smaller landowners.
April 20th, 2007 at 12:49 PM
That’s exactly it Rob. Thanks for the support!
April 20th, 2007 at 12:49 PM
Sounds interesting. But will it work gridwide, I don’t think so. I guess we’ll have to see. ~.~
April 20th, 2007 at 12:59 PM
Incredible! WTG!
April 20th, 2007 at 1:00 PM
Wonderful move.
We still need the ability to set an avatar limit inside a sim by square meters to prevent one parcel from monopolizing the sim and preventing other parcel owners from entering a full sim.
This is necessary because it is not feasible for an estate manager to have to babysit the regions 24*7 for avatar count abuse (camping).
April 20th, 2007 at 1:01 PM
Very awesome, I manage many sims in second-life and this will be very nice to see! I can’t wait to start seeing it! Will help with load!!
April 20th, 2007 at 1:01 PM
I think I missed the point.. does this link the estate ban lists or somehow if an abuse report by estate owner is decided as valid does it ban across all? As estate owner I can already ban ppl from our estate, what new option does this give and how does it help remove the abusers from the grid in general? Does this mean if a user is banned on more than X estates they get a grid ban? More of the technical details would be nice.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:02 PM
If this truly works, it will be a giant step forward to listening to our needs, and that is a MAJOR plus. I hope this works, and look forward to using it to its fullest capabilities
High 5 for Linden Lab!
April 20th, 2007 at 1:04 PM
This sounds like a fantastic idea. Owners can run their land their way.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:06 PM
As we know users can attach objects, call them anything they like, collect keys (or buy them) and spam users even without being on the same land, for example someone can pretend their object was created by a linden and spam a user with notecards or landmarks without us as Estate Owners even knowing who’s behind it - are your new “tools” going to enable us to deal with this? Will they give us an increase in how many Estate bans we can set? Will we be able to set timed bans? Reasons for the bans? The ability to ban a user and have it link (behind the scenes) to any/all alts they might have so that we dont fill our ban lists with numerous alt accounts for the one person?
April 20th, 2007 at 1:08 PM
Oh and will we be able to use Estate Tools to click on a resident (on our land) and see what attachments they are wearing so we can limit scripts they might have on them or attachments?
April 20th, 2007 at 1:10 PM
Okay, sounds good. But what if the esate owner is the one the reports are about? Together with the 3rd party banlists that we now have to use, it means pretty soon most parts of Second Life will not be available to you.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:11 PM
What exactly does this give that they don’t already have now?
April 20th, 2007 at 1:17 PM
@Cristalle;
Hopefully, more tools for mainland estate owners
April 20th, 2007 at 1:19 PM
Wow, very nice idea Lindens, proud of ya
April 20th, 2007 at 1:19 PM
A big step forward and Kudos to LL..
April 20th, 2007 at 1:20 PM
If i got it right, and in simple words : less work for LL, more work for sim owner. Conclusion : 295 US$ a month goes down to 245 US$ a month ?
April 20th, 2007 at 1:21 PM
What safeguards are there in place to prevent abuse by the landowners themselves against individuals they have, for whatever reason, taken a dislike to?
Also, how will this work on mainland, as you mention “the entire grid”?
I do not feel that this is a smart move by Linden Lab.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:26 PM
I love Linden Labs
Excellent idea, meaning that there is less centralised control … and therefore you get to spend all of those “dispute resolution” hours on improving the grid and the SL experience. Wonderful.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:28 PM
@ Mart
April 20th, 2007 at 1:41 PM
Outstanding! I too would like ot see the ability to ban via acct and have it include Alts. As for those who worry about the Estate owners themselves, if your not happy with your landlord, move.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:48 PM
Wagahai: This is not related to banlists at all. That is a separate project which wasn’t addressed in this post.
Arnold Wilder: If people are reporting a region owner, it’s up to the region owner to decide what to do. Meaning - If a region owner is being abusive to the point of you having to report him, well he can run his region the way he wants, you should probably not hang out there.
Tashie: Extended ban features are being worked on. Not related to this post though.
Broccoli: The grid, comprised of Private Islands. The Mainland will always be considered Second Life and run by the Lab.
Mart: Good Suggestions, different duties to different departments though. The governance team will continue to build out the tools private regions will need.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:50 PM
[...] (more…) [...]
April 20th, 2007 at 1:50 PM
We’ve been doing it a while now on the Isle of Lesbos. Glad to hear that more will move into handling it themselves, and that more tools will be available. Definitely a step forward.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:51 PM
Also, there are other extended functions of the ban/mute features that are being built out. One example that comes to mind are “Particle Controls”. Estate Level owners can choose to not allow particles of a certain effect, if thats how they decide to govern their region.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:54 PM
Nice!
But that’s just halfway.
Where are the tools to get a griefer or abuser BEFORE he starts!
As a Sim owner I still don’t like the Mario particles and a litlle guy telling me that he will stop a month for 100 lindens.
Please give us the tools to keep our expensive paradises a PARADISE
and not a griefers heaven!
Hillie
April 20th, 2007 at 1:57 PM
Estate-level governance coming to Second Life
April 20th, 2007 at 1:58 PM
The only difference I am seeing is that Estate Owners (and perhaps their delegates?) will receive copies of ARs filed, and then would determine whether to utilize the Estate Management tools that are already in place.
I have mixed feelings about it. As one holding estate management perms, I already deal with much of this. I don’t see the need for an additional layer of reporting via the formal AR process.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:07 PM
Tamii: That’s one of the benefits of the program. You can either choose to allow Linden to continue to manage your abuse, or do it yourself if you so choose.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:12 PM
“If people are reporting a region owner, it’s up to the region owner to decide what to do. Meaning - If a region owner is being abusive to the point of you having to report him, well he can run his region the way he wants, you should probably not hang out there.”
In other words, estate owners can grief us but we can’t grief them. I hope these individuals are prepared for a desert wastelend, if they do abuse these powers.
I think it’s great, this way estate owners will have no reason to whimper and complain if someone is abusing thier privilages on an estate. They deal with it or allow LL to deal with it. If they don’t deal with it themselves, they are nuts!
April 20th, 2007 at 2:15 PM
Interesting, any ETA on when this will be implimented?
April 20th, 2007 at 2:16 PM
What are u waiting for? Are u waiting that every players, buyers, sellers, leave to SL? U are killing your “chicken your make golden eggs”!!!
How many persons leave after so much trouble…
Please do something, because it evry day more bad….!!!
April 20th, 2007 at 2:22 PM
Chadrick, you keep saying Estate Owners will now be able to handle Abuse Reports, but unless Estate Managers are given the power to ban people from the SL grid (unlikely), It will be no different than what we can already do, which is ban a user from the Estate. Unless there is some fantastic new feature that has been undisclosed, It seems to me this amounts to little more than passing all responsibility for ARs to the Estate Owner. Anytime there is any abuse on my islands, I already know about it. The residents turn to me first, as they know ARing to LL is fruitless. I don’t get how this will help me help them any better. If I’m missing something, by all means elaborate. Thanks.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:26 PM
Let me rephrase the question then Chadrick.. we have estate managers already.. other than having residents able to contact an estate owner to say there’s a problem, how does this replace the existing functions of the abuse dept at linden labs.. What is the advantage to us over the old system? So far all I see is that as estate owner I get abuse reports.. I already get informed of abuse on my island.. and most of the time I file an abuse report it’s regarding a larger issue than 1 small island.. so again.. what does this do for me, the typical estate owner?
April 20th, 2007 at 2:26 PM
So Chadrick, what exactly is this going to do to benefit us, our Estate already has the ability to ban, timed or not, to send users home, etc. due to our OWN scripts - what are you as Linden Labs doing that is going to add benefit to what we already have? Abuse Reports are futile we dont even know what happens when we do report someone. As far as i can see i’m ALREADY handling the Abuse on my Island far better than anything i’m getting from Linden Labs. As my Island is in popular places, but i wasn’t in your “trial” perhaps you’d like to shed some light on why i should be getting excited.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:28 PM
Darien: Why should an estate owner be able to ban someone from the entire grid? If they have a problem with a particular avatar, they can restrict them from their region, which is the idea.
FYI, if someone gets banned by enough regions, Linden can see this, pushing us to look into the problem with that avatar. Furthermore, it allows you to delegate who handles the abuse. There are other tools which are being built out to help but as of now, since they aren’t finished, mums the word
April 20th, 2007 at 2:28 PM
And perhaps i should add, that my Island staff are able to contact me 24/7 (a little more customer service than linden labs provides) via text to my mobile again scripts we’ve added… so what’s the uber excitement?
April 20th, 2007 at 2:35 PM
Being in 1st World law enforcement for over 18 years, I see this as a potential for greifer groups calling themselve “police” or “security” and go around griefing in the name of “law enforcement”. We had a time when there were over 200 so called Police in SL., and in being in several, I found ALL of them to be just an outlet for guys and some gals to feed their Walter Mitty day-dreams or to act on some power trip, without personal restraint. Most handled problems by being abusive themselves.
This may well open a pandora’s box. Law Enforcement on any level needs to be taken seriously, when it actually would have power. Before the SL Police of various names had no real power. This would give these individuals the key to to door to convince some busy or less than aware property owners to let these so called “police” handle the incidences.
18 yr. old ego-maniacs and even people with good
intention by without actual real world training would be tend to be pure vigilante groups.
In 1st world I had to go through the academy, learning rights, technique, but more so, how to interact with other people without using a radical mentality, then rookie time on the job handling “human nature” under the watchful eyes of seniors, more experienced individuals than I was.
If this is to be the future of SL, I’d be glad to define what a police officer, or more so, a federal agent would be, how to train, how to be sure these individuals would be under strict supervision and be accountable for his/her actions as in real world, and not “play cops “.
Lastly If we factor in having a “world goverment”, that would be total chaos. I’ve seen that tried in several virtuals. The only result was exactly that, chaos.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:36 PM
Thanks for the response Chadrick. I only used grid banning as an example of furthering an estate owner’s powers beyond what they have now. I agree that power would probably be a larger cause of abuse where it actually available
I guess I’ll have to wait and see exactly how this fleshes out.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:42 PM
It also just occurred to me, different people probably have different ideas of what constitutes an ARable offense. When I think AR, I think of Orbiting and Sim crashing. But i would guess AR encompasses much more than that, perhaps even down to a very mundane level. From that perspective, I could see how this might be a new beneficial policy.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:45 PM
So .. if I understand the response to Darien.. LL is announcing something that they can’t announce or explain.. I fail to understand the reason for the “announcement” then.
..but getting back to the questions about the proposed change..
If I understand the above correctly; if I have 1 user who decides to use a few alts to attack and harass and is only banned on my island, I will have to set bans for each alt, then leave my estate and head to Linden Village in the hopes that I can find a Linden at their location to assist further (given that help request is going away and the abuse report would only go to me anyway since I’m estate owner). On the other hand, if someone uses a single alt to get banned from multiple estates, LL will notice and consider contacting the estate owners to see why bans were placed and decide if there is a reason to take grid-wide action (I’m assuming they’ll contact someone since we can’t set a reason for the ban and wouldn’t be just banning someone from the grid due to a number of people)
I don’t really get why people are seeing this as an improvement. If a few people could clarify in their comments instead of “way to go LL” I’d appreciate it since it’s not making sense for me.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
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April 20th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
We already do this to some extent on the Isle of Wyrms, either through our Estate managers like myself, or through parcel tools. In our own protocals we hold the LL TOS as paramount in our rulesets but we add our own behavior requirements and rules atop of that struture. We have actively policed our sims for a year now.
From what I gather the only change mentioned here is simply being able to view/handle abuse reports? Implied though I guess is more leaway in our handling of cases. Does this mean that if we determine, say in the case of a severe harassment case, we could pass our conclusions on to LL for further resolution…. and be assured that it would be acted on swiftly?
I see the promise for more tools also, I look forward to that. One major tool I could suggest is the ability to ban based on IP address. (even if hidden from our direct view, simply tagged with their username) This would take care of the situation where a banned individual returns with a vengence using a throwaway account. Not a perfect defense but more secure certainly.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:51 PM
Chadrick, for God’s sake, discuss with a competent lawyer first.
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April 20th, 2007 at 2:55 PM
I have a question. Since there’s no more live help and you can’t AR an estate manager, our only recourse is to leave. Previously “teleport home,” or logging out and relogging at home, has always been a sure-fire solution to nearly anything encountered on the grid. However, if an estate owner is handling all abuse reports on a sim, would it be possible to get trapped on that sim in any way if the estate manager decided to do that? I wouldn’t want to be falsely imprisoned, drafted, shanghaied or forced into slavery just because I was unfortunate enough to follow the wrong TP link.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:57 PM
Oh and one more thing. I would like to see more concierge and LL access for Estate Managers if the owner desires…. a hotline service so to speak. It may be nessesary if you are turning over more AR responsibilities to the Estate owners/managers. There needs to be a feedback system for questions of those that are handling ARs and for them to hand over reports they feel go beyond the scope of their islands.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:58 PM
Scenario:
a resident is exposing RL information about another resident in one way or another
The abused resident happens to file an abuse report at their home, on a private estate, believing that a Linden will see the submitted information, and with a reasonable expectation that the report will stay private.
Of course LL never sees the AR since it ends up going to the sim owner instead, making the disclosure even worse and doing nothing to ultimately address the filing resident’s legitimate problem.
If abuse reports are ending up in the hands of other residents this needs to be made very clear on the AR window, and it shouldn’t prevent anyone from being able to file an AR with LL, bypassing “local goverment”.
April 20th, 2007 at 2:58 PM
Kathryn, you should come to my island and we can discuss this. (Adds Kathryn to the “Imprison Forever” list in estate tools…)
April 20th, 2007 at 3:00 PM
@Darien
It isn’t the obvious ones I’m worried about.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:00 PM
#39 Kathryn Mahoney
I can answer that one, Kathryn. You will always have the option of at least logging out and logging back in manually at home or into another valid location. (See preferences, General, Start Location)
April 20th, 2007 at 3:01 PM
Onix: Great Question. The plan long term is for Island Owners to have access to Premium Abuse resolution if they want someone from Linden Lab to look into it first. This is above and beyond subscribing to the Linden method of governance if thats what an Island owner decides to do. Remember, no one HAS to do this, it’s just for those who *want* to manage their own abuse.
Kathryn: No island owner would be able to keep you there, the tools should and will allow you to make your own choices.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:03 PM
#41 Vanessa
I agree with Vanessa, a user should still be able to choose to make a direct report to LL’s AR system. No matter where they are. Perhaps a check-box/radio button “Send to Local AR/Send to Linden AR” for example.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:03 PM
oh, I feel a bit taken aback. Here I thought I was a stealthy shanghai-er.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:03 PM
The main difference between the status quo and the new system coming in, to me is this: It basically formalizes the already existing system and extends it to potentially TOS-violating enforcement actions. For example, if I were to ban someone based on the fact that he’s, oh, from Greenland, that’s blatant racism. Right now I could not do that without getting AR’ed myself, nor would I ever want to engage in that kind of behavior.
Other than an estate owner being racist or sexist or breaking another TOS tenet, it’s basically the same. I mean, why in the hell would you want to go to an estate whose owner didn’t like you anyway ? I’d get my friends to go elsewhere, if at all possible. Right now that’s exactly the way it is. If Mr. Doe who owns the island next door can’t stand my guts, bingo, I’m banned probably. I do think the estate owners who engage in overly harsh measures and/or racist/sexist/ageist/prejudiced behavior will have their reputations ruined in short order.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:04 PM
Vanessa: Good Point. The tool shows EVERY avatar upon entering the region that the Estate is Governed by the Owner and not Linden Lab.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:07 PM
Well, it would be good to see a bit more detail on this. Clearly in some cases estate managers are far better at dealing with local disputes than LL - and they do at the moment quite often, where somebody has an argument with their neighbour and contacts the estate owner, say.
On the other hand, there is the issue both of residents with disputes with their estate owners, or who are unsatisfied with the resolution of disputes with estate owners, and also dealing with incidents across different estates - “federal” cases. If somebody is ARed in estate X and also ARed in estates Y and Z, will those reports be combined? I understand that they would at the moment but if all reports go to individual managers that is made much more difficult.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:07 PM
Steve: Well called. The community will hold intolerant Island Owners personally responsible, and as we build out more tools that assist that to happen, you’ll see those who don’t treat people nicely will eventually be isolated on their region.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:10 PM
Steve M.:
“I mean, why in the hell would you want to go to an estate whose owner didn’t like you anyway ?”
No I don’t, but I want to charge his right to own an estate by Linden Lab.
As long as there is a chance that Linden Lab is promoting crime and receiving monetary reward on such behaviour, they have to police the estates to avoid legal charges.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:10 PM
Ordinal: Good Question. If an incident is reported on Linden run land, like the mainland, Linden will be responsible for it’s resolution. If it happens on an island, then the effect of that reports resolution, made by the estate manager/owner, will only affect that region.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:12 PM
>> Anna Eisbar Says: If i got it right, and in simple words : less work for LL, more work for sim owner. Conclusion : 295 US$ a month goes down to 245 US$ a month ?
Here’s my vote for the opposite, for anything that makes Linden Labs more efficient and profitable. Remember Anna, if they go down, we *all* go down — and how many millions of RL dollars do we all have collectively “invested” in their “game” called Second Life? Everyone knows you shouldn’t kill the goose that lays the golden eggs — but fewer realize that you also have to keep it alive.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:13 PM
I like teh idea Chadrick- my estate is my land and I want to be able to have the tools to effectively manage it as well as delegate authority. I look forward to additional tools to do this. Any chance of getting in the beta still? Thanks
April 20th, 2007 at 3:14 PM
okay LL bans people from logging in if they break some rule after a warning, will the residents be able to do this?
What if someone goes and does something really bad in a sim, but can log into the grid and does it again on another sim.
He will just be banned from that persons land? or the grid?
April 20th, 2007 at 3:14 PM
Thank you for the quick answer, Chadrick.
#41 Steve, I think those estate owners who choose to behave in a bigoted way will have no problem filling their sims with other avatars who share their sentiments. I’m not entirely sure it’s a bad thing if they have their own lawns on which to burn their crosses, where the rest of us don’t have to be bothered with them. OTOH I would hate to see them feel validated by Linden Labs in any way, and I’m sure this is not the intention.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:18 PM
@5: Setting an avatar limit per square meter is ridiculous. Maybe it would help stop camping chairs that happen to be grouped together, but it would also stop live concerts, town halls, campfires, some team games, and social gatherings of any sort.
And to get back ON TOPIC: Linden Lab has the ability to ban by hardware hash, meaning that a griefer would not be able to just log back in with a new alt and continue the harassment. Will estate owners eventually have the ability to ban specific computers as opposed to usernames from their land?
April 20th, 2007 at 3:19 PM
Wow, this was quick. No more than a couple days ago, people were shouting for this on the thread about the Abuse Report changes. I understand this has been in the works for a while, but nice timing in disclosing it to the public. x3 Definately a step in the right direction, too.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:21 PM
This seems like a good idea, but…
When LL investigates an abuse report, they have access to, as I understand it, a fairly extensive set of chat logs and event logs. They can see whether the reported event actually happened and discover both sides of what may seem like a cut-and-dry issue. Will Estate owners have access to this kind of information in order to make our judgements?
April 20th, 2007 at 3:22 PM
Yay! From now on, i can send my Supervisor reports in Abuse Report to the Estate Owner every day if offline instead of a messy IM ^.^ lol.
Leviathan has alot of problems, so this works great for both Visitors and Management Staff.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:22 PM
The place that needs this most would seem to be mainland, with lack of zoning, etc… so… while I appreciate this at some level I do not see a distinct improvement. if I don’t want you on my island, you’re just not there anymore. It’s that simple.
At least on islands we can enforce zoning. When mainland can catch up to that, well…
April 20th, 2007 at 3:27 PM
Some people here have made some good points. Perhaps you should ‘reward’ private island owners for their efforts in handling ARs. An incentive program for those Island owners that opt-in to the program. ^.^ (a break on rent for example, after all they are taking on quite a task, and as I see it that is of high value to LL) I am sure you could make methods of tracking the number of ‘resolved’ cases an Island owner takes off LL hands.
Just a suggestion though.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:28 PM
Very much looking forward to this feature for our own region and residents. A web based API would be great to go with this so we could hook it into our website
April 20th, 2007 at 3:32 PM
AWESOME, happy something is being done. This is great because when I look at the police blotter and see that an avatar was warned or suspended for doing some wrong in my sim. I always wanted to know who it was, so I could estate ban them. So I believe this will be a great improvment to the SL community. We already police our sims as much as we can, so this will improve our abilities to do a better job. One question hope it not off topic. But with policing our sim for the last 9 months, it has become a little crowded on our estate ban list. 273 for reasons that some time we need to ban whole group and can not, so we have to ban each avatar in that group. Is this new feature going to include a raise to more then 300 on the estate ban list? And will it be possible to ban whole groups from the estates?.
Thanks and keep up the great work.
Spontaneous Radio
April 20th, 2007 at 3:33 PM
About current intolerance in SIMs, what is not crime, to be clear.
There is already one SIM, which is 100% French language. (Some French take their language so seriously that they make intolerant Yankees look tame.) So, I see here a 180 degree change in the public policy of Linden Lan in the tolerancy issues. I think the money turned their head but I think that they do not comprehend where they are heading.
It is ok as long as they follow Californian law in Linden Lab. Do they, is a question in several SIMs.
My understanding is that either they didn’t think completely this L$ implementation or they believe much in laissez-faire, which is a risky legal policy.
No, SL is not unique. Other international rivals have adapted better to legal environments but have not gone as far with money. And rivals are much bigger too.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:33 PM
For the benefit of some people who are having a hard time understanding what this means…
Basically this means that if the estate owner chooses to, they can handle abuse reports filed on their island. This does not mean they have to, it can remain the way it is. It just gives the estate manager the choice to have all ARs directed to them.
The estate managers furthermore cannot hold you in their island, simply TP out, or if Second Life won’t let you, logout and login at a new location (the long-teleport)
I feel this is a good idea, so that we could file this under our own abuse system that we hold for our island, but for some this may be just another hassle. They can then choose to continue to let the Lindens handle it.
I believe I saw a comment above about owning an entire mainland region, that is not an estate. That is no different from owning a 512sqm parcel in that sim, its just the entire parcel on the sim. The mainland sims are always owned by Linden Lab therefore this does not apply to you.
Hopefully this cleared something up?
April 20th, 2007 at 3:34 PM
Also by the way, if they are attacking you on their own island, then choose not to go there. It is their island, therefore they can set the rules. You probably won’t want to be there anyways if the estate owner is going to act like that, believe me I know.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:35 PM
Cameron: He’ll be banned from that one region, and LL monitors the number of regions someone would be banned from. So if someone decides to start causing problems in multiple regions, we notice.
Chronic: Upcoming account verification changes will, in effect, create this solution, yes.
Iexo: Thank you.
Onix: Great suggestion, we’ll look into options.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:38 PM
Zachary: Exakt!
April 20th, 2007 at 3:40 PM
Yay…glad I could help.
Really looking forward to this, could create a round-about way to actually set 24 hour bans for people with AR..but that could be abused. So many uses would be possible.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:40 PM
another issue is due process for the alledged abuser… to ensure nobody is the vicitm of arbitrary abuse of power or false allegations..not sure how this new system will handle that but it is an issue what we also need is a better business bureau central respository..the other day I purchased what turned out to be a recycled freebie available for one dollar that was being sold for 350 ..and when I made the mistake if saying what I thought out loud to my friend on discovering it..we were both ejected and banned..it would be nice to warn others of unscrupulous practice like this.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:46 PM
Let me make one thing clear: you have NO expectation of due process and NO right to be fairly treated when you’re on someone else’s land or in someone else’s sim. I can ban you at any time for absolutely any reason and you have NO recourse. There are no constitutional rights to free speech or getting to hang out in any given sim. If someone doesn’t like you and bans you, for whatever reason they choose, that’s their right. Remember, they’re paying for the land/island, and you’re not!
April 20th, 2007 at 3:47 PM
I have seen the results in one of the estates (Fantasy Land) that was testing this and I am very much in favour of this new governance method. It works well as the estate owner can then make certain things more reprehensible than others.
One report I heard of on a suspected underager caused an almost immediate ban throughout the estate. (Lindens BTW never immediately act on this type of report)
Eventually the suspected underager was cleared, it took about a month I think, and he could get back into his rented land. But for that month everyone else in that estate was kept safe from contact with him.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:47 PM
That is EXCELLENT! I used to be in There, and everything bogged down over griefer reports, etc…but the company just couldn’t ‘let go’ of that responsibility. So things were always backed up on griefer issues.
By allowing estate owners to govern their own areas, you’ve made us partners, instead of treating us like children without good sense. Thank you, Thank you.
“When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” Makes sense to me!
M
April 20th, 2007 at 3:48 PM
One problem we are starting to see is regions being used by estate owners to support greifer groups which are a bane on SL as a whole. Woodbury University sim, for instance, is supporting the /b/tards and Patriotic Nigras, but LL put them back online after only a few days, and they are rebuilding their greifer base there. Why a university would support terrorism is a question we are still seeking answers for (but have some very good ideas), but this speaks to why there needs to be a abuse reporting system to report estate owners who abuse their power, not just on their own residents, but upon SL as a whole.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:52 PM
So, when an estate manager or sim owner is dealing with a case that they feel CLEARLY should result in the reported individual being perma-banned from SL, what do they do? Will they have a “hotline” to bring in Linden Law on their side? Or will their limit of authority be the limit of their estates?
If I am in a private sim, and the sim gets bought by someone else and the new owner essentially declares “martial law” and starts griefing the residents, you’re saying we CAN’T escalate this to a Linden? That is insane.
This is not progress. It’s breaking the grid into an anarchy of petty city-states, with no extradition and no shared penalties, while Linden Lab largely washes their hands of most of the problems.
I can easily see a greifer crashing one estate’s sims, and then another, and the worst that happens to them is they get banned from a handful of sims. Ot robbing people blind with land bots or other scams, and Linden Lab just going “Ho hum, take it up with the estate.” While the estate managers can’t do more than ban the abuser from their estate. And the abuser walks away scott free with ther ill-gotten gains.
This is like telling shopkeepers that they are in charge of administering their own justice when the gangs start looting, but not allowing them to do anything more than kick the looter out of the store and move the problem into someone else’s neighborhood. Sorry, if the Sherrif is leaving town and telling me “You’re on yer’ own”, then estate managers better be able to shoot to kill. In other words, to actually do a grid-wide suspend or ban. Just banning them from an estate is nothing.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:52 PM
About the misunderstood ownership in SL.
I agree that according to the agreements published by Linden Lab persons and juridical persons behind avatars own certain rights to intellectual property. But I don’t know exactly what these rights are.
But my understanding is that persons and juridical persons behind avatars do not juridically own virtual land or private estate in Second Life even if Linden Lab uses the term ‘own’. They rent as long as Linden Lab can evict the renter at will.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:52 PM
Lex, Jayden, Mariah: Awsome feedback, thank you. One example I know of during the test, was an Island Owner who received reports of someone shooting all over the Island. They tracked the person down and instead of banning them, IMed them. It turned out the person was new, had no alts, and furthermore, had no idea it wasn’t allowed.
The island owner introduced herself, and got to chatting. Turns out he’s now taking scripting and building courses on the island, and is helping to make a better Second Life.
Linden Lab would never have had the time to show this kind of attention and return this type of result. There are positives that can come out of such programs, and I thank you all for seeing them.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:54 PM
Broccoli Curry Says:
April 20th, 2007 at 1:21 PM PDT
What safeguards are there in place to prevent abuse by the landowners themselves against individuals they have, for whatever reason, taken a dislike to?
Also, how will this work on mainland, as you mention “the entire grid”?
I do not feel that this is a smart move by Linden Lab.
It took Broccoli Curry a full 18 posts to respond negatively to this.
Gotta get back on the ball, Mr. Curry.
April 20th, 2007 at 3:55 PM
Ceera: Please see my response to Cameron above, comment post 69.
April 20th, 2007 at 4:00 PM
So . . . in the future, if I file a confidential AR against someone, while on someone else’s estate, I can take it that I am quite possibly also sending this information, including my name, to the owner of the estate and whoever he decides to share it with?
coco
April 20th, 2007 at 4:01 PM
Coco: The estate owner would know you were the person who filed the report, yes. No personal account info though, just your avatar name.
April 20th, 2007 at 4:03 PM
It sounds to me like, if you want to be sure an AR gets seen by Linden Labs, TP to Linden Village to file it.
April 20th, 2007 at 4:06 PM
Chadrick, thank you for at least staying with this thread and attempting to respons. So few LL Bloggers do more than “fire and forget”.
So… Linden Lab will not act until whole estates start falling like dominoes, no matter how henious the act of the griefer? Someone crashes the whole estate, or steals huge amounts of L$ or land, and until it’s reported and banned in multiple estates, LL will do NOTHING???
Is that what you’re really saying? That there is no crime so henious, no infraction of TOS to CS that is so vile, that Linden Lab can be called in to do something about it NOW, while the grifer is still frozen and captive, or still causing trouble?
Are you really saying that Linden Lab will not raise a finger to support any individual in a “self-goverened sim”? If some new owner, perhaps the head of a griefer team, buys the sim, and we don’t like what he’s doing in terms of governing the sim, our only recourse is to sell our holdings in that sim and leave? And LL with do NOTHING?
I really can’t believe that is what you want. PLEASE tell me it isn’t.
April 20th, 2007 at 4:12 PM
will there be a option for those that need to ar more serious crimes
April 20th, 2007 at 4:12 PM
Ceera: As stated in the initial blog post, this is Opt-in. So that’s not what I’m saying no. This is only for those who want to use it.
April 20th, 2007 at 4:14 PM
Well, then, it sounds like instead of any kind of a country or coherent system, what we will have is a lot of fiefdoms with the person who pays for the land making whatever arbitrary rules and arbitrary decisions he wants, carte blanche.
I’m not passing judgement on that (though I could), I’m stating the facts as I have understood them.
This story, put forward as an example of how this is good -
“One report I heard of on a suspected underager caused an almost immediate ban throughout the estate. (Lindens BTW never immediately act on this type of report)
“Eventually the suspected underager was cleared, it took about a month I think, and he could get back into his rented land. But for that month everyone else in that estate was kept safe from contact with him.”
- is instead an example of how it is bad, I think. I think that individual needed protection from the estate, not the other way around.
But if what you want is to make it easier to have a number of fiefdoms with all power in the hands of the owner to flat-out do whatever they want, including taking people’s rental money if they so desire, then I suppose you have a right to want and like that sort of thing.
I don’t understand the mainland, though - is this always going to be under Governer Linden’s aegis? Or will I, as the owner of half a Sim, be able to see all the AR’s generated on my land as well?
And would Lindens see all the AR’s, or - I should say - bother to look at them? What if someone on an estate feels a need to AR the estate owner for something that happened on that land? There wouldn’t be much point in it if the only one who will look at it will be the owner himself and his friends.
In any case, I think you will need very clearly in the interface (is that what it’s called?) to warn people that what they say in their AR will no longer be confidential between them and LL, but may be shared with anyone and everyone else at another resident’s discretion.
coco
April 20th, 2007 at 4:15 PM
P.S. I want to add that I also appreciate your discussing this with us, Chadrick.
coco
April 20th, 2007 at 4:16 PM
Chadrick, there has to be SOME method for escalation.
If my city cops are corrupt, and refuse to arrest a local drug dealer, I can go to the state cops. Or if the city cops have a problem that is too big for them to handle, they can call in higher levels of enforcement. There is ALWAYS, in a fair legal system, a means to escalate severe issues, as well as a means to appeal unfair treatment by those who abuse their power.
You are offering no hope. No appeal.
Griefers take over an estate? Too bad. Until they get complaints about them from somewhere else. Oh, you say they just took ovr a few more sims? Well, it’s theirs sims now, and they can do as they please…
Is that the future you want for Second Life? That is what you will get, if you turn your back on these self-goverened lands.
April 20th, 2007 at 4:20 PM
#80 … look me up, I’m female.
So “the grid” in this context is not the same “grid” as every other context… just the private islands, getting the option of preferential treatment, whilst the mainland gets a constantly second class service ?
Broccoli
April 20th, 2007 at 4:22 PM
Excellent move. I don’t own land and have no plans to do so, but am more interested in the general (let’s say political/philosophical) aspects of life on the Grid and every move that enables and empowers users I certainly welcome here.
This move should bring more diversity to the grid, from strict to tolerant to anarchic places, so that everyone could choose from them. One thing I’d suggest (if it hasn’t been suggested already) would be an official way (by menu or something) to find out the land governance rules and the person or agency who’s handling abuse (sort of a function like the profile, just for the land).
But I love the idea … please continue to put the power into people’s hands