Have you ever used the LindeX to buy or sell Linden Dollars?
Tuesday, January 23rd, 2007 at 8:10 AM by: Zee LindenLawrence Linden and I are thinking about some changes to Second Life’s virtual currency exchange, the LindeX. If you have a minute, please fill out the short survey (the survey is now closed)
UPDATED
Thanks for your participation. About 3,600 people participated in the survey. Of those, only 18% had never bought or sold on the LindeX. Most of those people didn’t need to use the LindeX because they earned everything they needed to spend in SecondLife or vice-versa.
Of the people who have processed LindeX credits, ~94% used Paypal. More than half would like to have a SecondLife branded debit card. That’s good feedback, we’ll work on setting that up. I understand that it may take a while to get a bank on board with it, I wouldn’t expect it before midyear.
You can see the raw results of the survey here.
Also, we should have our new system up and running tomorrow, so hopefully we’ll be able to process the backlog of requests.
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:17 AM
Very easy to use, money sells in minutes
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:19 AM
I completed the survey, and the idea of being able to transfer funds to a credit/debit mastercard would be so ideal… Please tell me you’re at least pondering this option.
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:25 AM
Anything to improve tyhe current state of delayed credit processing. is a good thing.
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:31 AM
My business partner and I may be available to provide some consulting. Feel free to contact me to discuss your requirements and our rates.
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:39 AM
YES YES YES to MC/V DEBIT!
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:45 AM
as I mentioed in my survey, Good idea but as an American Company your card is likely to be only available to US citizens, if it is broader fine.
But how much will you pay me for advertising your company when I use your card?
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:58 AM
it would be ideal if u tought about a way of just putting in a card number and details and take or put money into a laster or credit card
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:06 AM
I would prefer that you added the ability to directly deposit any US funds into a bank account, and that you get rid of Pay Pal.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:08 AM
I normally use Firefox, which does not seem to be supported by SurveyMonkey - but even when I tried using IE7 to complete the survey, it kept saying my browser would accept cookies and refused to let me complete the survey. I followed the instructions step-by-step to allow cookies, and even tried to give the site an individual site allowance, but neither solved the problem. I use the LindenX frequently and would love to be able to respond, but at this point don’t seem to be able to.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:17 AM
Yeah, I want to second Magnum’s proposal, allow deposits to bank accounts and down with PayPal. Debiting a CC is a good start though.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:18 AM
Mag, i had a hell of a time getting that sort of Q answered to CS……Gesh they could not even figure out if i could have a check sent to me or not……. SECOND GET RID of PAYPAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:30 AM
DON’T get rid of PayPal!!
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:33 AM
PayPal is okay, but credit processing could be faster. A bank card for direct withdrawal at an ATM would be good.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:34 AM
Just to clarify, LindeX is what you’re using if you buy/sell L$ in-world or if you buy/sell L$ using secondlife.com, right?
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:52 AM
An OH HELL YESS to th e MC/V Debit… but only if there’s no transfer time involved.. or at least a shorter one than there is now. Waiting for my paypal transfer is driving me nuts. I just pray it makes it by rent day…
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:56 AM
Paypal is the only viable and economical option for people abroad; however, it’s slow and expensive (they charge outrageous change rate when cashing out from USD to EUR)
That said, having a debit card that directly works with our US$ balance would be AWESOME.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:57 AM
YES to MC/V Debit Card!
*bouncebounce*
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:03 AM
Transfer to Credit/Debit Card would be wonderful!
Even though I must admit, my BF cashed out a little over 2 weeks ago and received a check rather quickly.
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:03 AM
yay seems there breaking there own rules by advertising mastercard and visa…….can we say “sponsership”
LL before even doing ANYTHING like this you need to gain the trust of your CUSTOMERS after the recent credtcard fraud situation that caused all the victims to have there accounts locked down all there money wiped into the minus of millions.
i dident even bother with the survey as its just a blatent slap in the face.
but anyway keep paypal and i have delt with paypal before the MINIMUM of days is 2 days NOT 5
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:04 AM
Please do what ever you like as long as you keep the other options open. Paypal is good enough for now…
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:07 AM
As I have read repeatedly that the non-US users are a rapidly growing segment it would be welcome and refreshing if whatever changes are considered or implemented would be verified for international use.
I’m still relatively new and have not yet had to try and cash out any funds, but everything I’ve read so far suggests it will be inefficient and expensive, through exchange fees and service charges.
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:12 AM
Had zero problems with Lindex, but in fairness my money tends to go in and not come out..
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:14 AM
oh yes, id love a secondlife branded credit card? How about a mortgage or low cost loan too while youre at it
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:19 AM
chmarr walcott -
(but anyway keep paypal and i have delt with paypal before the MINIMUM of days is 2 days NOT 5)
PayPal is good… but Paypal have the most idoitic customer support team. If there was maybe something similar, direct bank transfers or something along those lines, it would be best.
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:38 AM
Please do NOT get rid of Paypal - it is the cheapest option for those who are not in the US. Without Paypal as an option I would not put any money into SL because of ForEx fees.
So, please please PLEASE keep Paypal!
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:48 AM
I don’t mind a payment to a bank account.
This whole thing of a SL branded card… takes just as long as it would for paypal or a check. By the time I got the money on the card and set it up to transfer to my account (not including the fact that most banks charge transaction fees to directly deposit from other cards), I’m spending the same amount of time, for more hassle.
I say they do like other games that pay out real cash…
Allow a direct draft once or twice a month, to deposit into a bank account. Just enter your routing number (on a separate secure secondary site of course, and one that does not store those numbers) and voila… within 24 hours, the moolah is there.
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:56 AM
Everyone who is suggesting direct bank deposits realizes, I hope, that if you give out your account number, the transactions can go both ways. The normal rational for that is that if the payer overpays, they can debit your account to get back the overpayment.
However, there are no checks for that, so if you give LL or any other company your account number, you’ve given them complete access to your account.
For myself I will only do that with a government registered financial institution and then only very sparingly.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:03 AM
The best payment method is epassporte (www.epassporte.com).
Hopefully Linden Labs will use it soon, and get rid of Pay Pal.
I believe it is even cheeper to maintain (for companies like Linden Labs) than Pay Pal, and with wider coverage for both US and international residents.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 AM
I don’t want a Second life branded card, but I would appreciate the ability to cash out to the same card I currently pay my membership from.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:16 AM
How about eliminating the speculation market that “determines the value of L$ to US$?” I mean, it’s not like we actually have a SAY on how many L$ we get when we buy, nor do we have a SAY on how many US$ we get for our L$.
If we had the option of saying, “I want to sell my L$1,000.00 for US$4.00″ then the “Variable Rate Lindex” is fine. But without it, it’s just a foolish mockery.
If people want L$250/US$1.00, then for crissakes, make it so the Lindex is FIXED and get rid of that friggen “Variable Rate” thingy in it.
It makes no sense and seems to have no real basis in reality, especially since when we sell, we can’t set the prices we want to sell at. Which is very much unlike, well, just about everything else out there with variable pricing.
As for processing options? Debit is good. PayPal is good. Direct checking account access? A little scary if you ask me.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:18 AM
I’m sick of all the transaction fees. You get hit with currency fees when you put in a 4.5c per $1US fee when you buy, a 2.2% fee from paypal, and then you go through it all over again when you cash out, its ridiculous. Linden already make enough, give us a chance.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:41 AM
I’ve never cashed out so I got the short survey… I agree that a L$ mastercard would be a great idea but there is one problem.
To bring up one point that nobody’s mentioned yet- if you allow even more free conversion between L$ and any sort of real currency, or allow L$ to be translated into US$ and spent on the fly, this gives more creedence to the fact that L$ is a form of currency (stick with me, I’m going somewhere with this).
Quoth the TOS:
You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency (”Currency” or “Linden Dollars” or “L$”), which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time.
Now as I recall, having L$ NOT be a ‘currency’ has a number of advantages, namely no gov’t crackdowns on gambling areas (because no ‘real money’ is being spent- just licenses being exchanged). Also, it makes virtual currency mostly immune from taxes as earned in world- you are of course taxed when you cash out but that’s nothing new.
If LL gives up that issue and agrees that L$ is real currency, I could see this changing a few things. First off, the above TOS segment gets tossed because if you own currency LL (or any other ‘bank) can’t just take it away. Second, being currency it or its SL uses may fall afoul of USA or other laws regarding gambling, porn, etc or other such silliness. And lastly, if it is considered currency, I would imagine LL will now fall under banking laws and must comply with them, which creates an entire new level of headaches for them I’d imagine.
Now I’m not saying the two are incompatible- granted they can certainly set up a debit card program or easy fundage transfers, but the more this happens, the harder it is to call L$ a ‘license’ or virtual currency. Most people will agree that once you can walk into a store and buy IRL stuff with it that makes it money regardless of whatever someone wants to call it.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:42 AM
You can set the sell rate for your Lindens, its called a Limit Sell. You choose the sell rate and then wait until someone is willing to buy L$ at the rate you’ve set. Uf all you ever do is Market Sells you are not getting the best rate you can. Of course if your desired rate is out of line with what people are willing to pay you will wait a very long time to sell your L$ or they may never sell at all.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:54 AM
Hmmm… a LL credit card…I really doon’t want another CC and do use PayPal frequently, their fees are a bit much though. Just wondering, if I am a businees owner and put the $L on the cc/debit card…are there any tax implications for those of us in the USA?
Seems to me, this may open a can of worms
January 23rd, 2007 at 12:32 PM
I just wish when you applied to increase the ammount you want to cash out a month they would actually get to in the the time they state, I have been trying since middle of december to increase my selling cash out limit and sellling limit. It is getting difficult to do business since I cannot convert rent and land sales to US dollars to pay for tier. Please fix this asap with the lindex
January 23rd, 2007 at 12:38 PM
With 50% of residents now not US residents the time has come for an exchange in currencies other than the US$. Billing other currencies would not go amiss either.
January 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 PM
DO NOT GET RID OF PAY PAL For me buying L is easy with pay pal, its convenient and is how I rather buy.
add other options as you see but dont force them on us as the only options.
What I expect will happen is that you force us to all conform to some little mold of how we should buy and sell out L added to poor customer support you will loose members. Of course loosing members will return stability with issues that are caused by the high numbers of people that log in.
January 23rd, 2007 at 12:48 PM
@Lynn Kukulcan
Perhaps you didn’t set your lindex settings to advanced but what you are describing: 1000L at 4.00 is exactly how the Lindex works.
Or perhaps you are just saying you are okay with Lindex as long as people give you whatever you want for your lindens.
not sure which
Brookston
P.S. Wouldn’t it be neat if there were still an economy forum where something like this could be discussed and new ideas brought to the table, without everyone having to wait for the Lindens to start a post on the subject.
January 23rd, 2007 at 12:49 PM
A SL branded credit card for only US resident. How nearsighted of you.
Quote: Everyone who is suggesting direct bank deposits realizes, I hope, that if you give out your account number, the transactions can go both ways. /Quote
Actually this is completly untrue. In the US, direct deposits are typical and can only go one way. In the UK, direct deposits happen very easily and most people use them for anything from paying a friend back for the bulk concert tickets, to wages, to rent payments, to utility bills. All being extremly secure.
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:06 PM
Great idea, its always nice to have more options. I found it odd to see a couple confrontational questions in the reply, such as “How much you gonna pay us for using the card?”. Clearly nothing, why would LL pay you for giving you another option?
When LL offers a new feature or service it seems silly to complain about it before its even introduced. If LL gets a bunch of people giving them a hard time every time they introduce a new feature they will eventually say “I don’t want to hear any more complaints, lets just leave it as it is and not add any new features..”
I dont think another withdraw option would make L$ more likely to be mistaken as an actual currency. L$ has no real value until sold, until then it only has the potential of value. Whatever you believe the status of L$ is another withdraw option wouldn’t change that perception I think..
I also wouldn’t consider offering a “Second Life Mastercard Debit Card” to be “sponsorship”, its offering a voluntary service to it’s customers and using the MasterCard logo to make it widely accepted and available to a wider base of their customers.
Feel free to give LL a hard time when they mess up, but try to cut them a little slack when they try to introduce a new feature. Every new feature they introduce adds to the possiblity of a quirk someone isn’t going to like, they may one day determine its easier not to offer new features if too many complaints come in every time they introduce a new one..
Good idea, hope to see it soon sometime, I’d get one right away.
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:07 PM
The issue of L$ would be easy if there was no way to pull real money out of SL. But the exchange of L$ to US$ is a tricky issue. LL is able to skate right now on calling the L$ not currency and so far everyone is ok with that. The more they offer things that act like a bank or any sort of financial intuition this will evaporate and you will have the tax man from many countries looking to get there cut.
There are a number of you out there making money from SL and that’s great. I’m not one of those and I’m not looking to, but for those that are, talk to your tax advisor no matter what country you live in.
Right now using PayPal and limiting the way to pull US$ out of SL keeps it simple, lets try and keep it that way. Once the IRS (or your country’s equivalent) pokes there nose in, they will never ignore it again.
As just a consumer, the way to buy L$ works for me.
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:08 PM
Man……if there is ONLY one thing that makes more nervous than a “changes to the grid” annoucement it is this about LindeX:)
So can anyone tell me whats wrong with the way things are now?
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:14 PM
I love this idea! I’d consider greatly increasing my investments in SL if this were to take place — makes things so much easier for everyone who uses SL as a business platform! Great idea and I really hope this gets implemented!!!
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:19 PM
I prefer PayPal, always have. Not too bad to set up, and once it is, it is a joy to use.
January 23rd, 2007 at 1:26 PM
I agree, KEEP PAYPAL! Its an easy way to combine you SL sales with other things like ebay, and mechant services (like I have).
One of the things about the L$ that makes me wonder is its exchange rate. What really determines it? I’m no advanced economist, but I would like to see some sort of formula or calculation made simple and public on what determines its current value. Something like that could do wonders for those who would like to predict the future of the SL economy on the side.
I also would like to have some form of insurance and intrest on my L$. I make all the money to support my SL region inworld, and would like it to be safe so I can pay my isle fee when the time comes around.
In general SL could use more banking options, when I say banking options I mean positive ones. Stay out of credits lines, loans and anything else that can make a negative balance, because I can simply stop playing and you just lost money right there.
Some examples include, savings acounts, savings bonds in L$, options that grow with SL. Giving the liittle guys money to spend and more of a reason to watch SL and put more money into it.
The more money a person has the more likely they will spend it. Meaning that given the current way the Linden flows, it’ll come back to LL in some way (and they never lost anything until its exchanged back to anouther currency).
And above all else insurance will give a lot of us peice of mind.
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:03 PM
Credit in general is evil unless it is limited to relatively small amounts in short terms to people with no credit history or those who have established a fairly long history of good credit.
The whole U.S. credit system is driving people into the poor house. It emphasizes the rift between rich and poor. It needs to stop.
I take it that LL consider themselves socially responsible.
I do not see the unrestrained granting of credit socially responsible in any way.
Just sayin’. Back when you had to pay your AmEx off every month, that was fine. Making a profitable business out of loaning money that you will never get back is just evil.
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:17 PM
I’ve never had much experience with PayPal, but direct deposit sounds more convenient, at least for American users.
Other virtual environments have an ATM option, as well. I believe the one I am thinking of specifically is Entropia. It would be interesting to hear how their users feel about the system.
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:33 PM
Took the servey..
The NUMBER ONE aspect of the survey I would be very excited about is the “2nd Life Branded Mastercard/Visa that would allow you to transfer directly”. If this could be done both way with a New Zealand Bank Account. This would be a major reason why I would stick around SL despite the ‘Thank You for your patience” aggravation. Which to tell you the truth has made me consider leaving.
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:34 PM
@Luth Brodie - If only that were true.
Giving someone your account number opens you to “Demand Draft” fraud which is one of the methods the Nigerian phishing scams use.
http://www.answers.com/topic/demand-draft-investment
There have been movements to do something about it, but it hasn’t happened yet.
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 PM
PAypal is useless in Guatemala, as well as any other option with the exception of maybe using western union, or a wire transfer, been waiting for a simple solution to be able to cash out US$ properly since i joined SL in mid 2004
January 23rd, 2007 at 3:09 PM
I think a debit card would be a good idea if it were offered by a nice, ethical company.
I’m attempting to participate in a credit card boycott, though, so if SL offers a Visa or Mastercard debit card, I will most likely avoid using it, in order to avoid supporting those companies.
Here’s my web page about my credit card boycott: http://astroblahhh.com/activism/creditcardboycott.shtml
January 23rd, 2007 at 3:09 PM
Hiya all,
As far as I’m ablo to judge Lindex works exactely the same as the money exchange institutes in RL do. There’s only one difference: RLbanks buy foreign currencies in such large quatities that the prices can be fixed for you - the customer. Of course the profit for the bank is the difference between your price and the rate the bank has been able to buy the currency for.
Either LL does not hold large quatities of Lindens or they don’t want to get involved in the possible fluctuation of rates - fact is that you as the seller/buyer negociate immediately with the buyer/seller. Although this interaction makes the certainty of being able to deal for the price you would like most unsure, fact is this procedure is exactely like when you go to a bank to buy/sell a foreign currency.
Apparently LL again has chosen for a transparent procedure - as they do constantly. However the consequence indeed may be an uncertain exchange rate.
You want certainty in selling or buying Lindens? You want a fixed rate, like your local bank offers when you want to buy a foreign cuurency? Then please note: holding large quantities of currency, whether it be any RL currency or Linden Dollars, does influence the exchange rate negatively. Simply because the risk in exchange rates, the holding fee, the insurance and the risk of crashes in the world-economy are all calculated into the final exchange rate you pay.
Without any doubt LL will get it’s fees for exchanging Lindens, nevertheless the process of negociating between the amount of sellers and buyers - the financial handshaking, so to say - is in my opinion the less expensive way of exchanging Lindens.
Nevertheless I agree with most of you - I do like to know as well what I get before I decide to buy or to sell. So I chose an external exchange option. Ergo; am I happy now?
Yes and no. I know exactely what I’ll receive in exchange for my dearly beloved Linden dollars. But of course I receive less USD/Euro than I might have been able to receive through Lindex.
From their point of view LL has made the best decision. Lindex is between residents, as all of SL is. LL very rarely decides to interfere in SL. This by all means is the best part of SL. God creates space in which something is allowed to unfold. This may be the best definition of Love ever.
All the best to all of you,
AT
January 23rd, 2007 at 3:21 PM
I LOVE the idea of have a SL debit card - Please implement this!
January 23rd, 2007 at 3:21 PM
Here’s a BETTER idea. Once we’ve sent funds to our Paypal account *ONCE*, you keep that information on file, and from then on when we request a transfer, you DON’T take a solid week to verify information *EVERY SINGLE TIME*. It’s inexcusable that this process hasn’t been implimented and automated already.
January 23rd, 2007 at 3:31 PM
It might help us to actually answer the survey a bit more informedly if we actually had an idea of what you were thinking about.
I do feel a little uncomfortable in filling in a survey with unknown motives, only to be told that when yet another Zee Linden related disasterous community-killing decision is made that ‘we agreed’ to it.
Broccoli
January 23rd, 2007 at 3:37 PM
@ Luth Brodie
Ralph is correct. I work at a bank, dealing with all the ACH issues. (ACH is the type of transaction that would be occuring with the current topic). Yes, once you give out your account number, the transactions can work both ways.
Now, this isn’t to say that you don’t have recourse or actions you can take to fight something that may happen…but then you are wasting your time and energy to get it fixed.
I do alot of ACH type transactions (direct debits) with my account, but it is with companies that I have been doing business with for a long time, or with large companies that do this on a regular basis with not many issues.
Ask yourself if you would trust LL’s track record with your account number….
January 23rd, 2007 at 4:03 PM
I am curious as to what changes are being considered to be made to the Lindex. I have read this blog post and I looked over the Lindex link. I don’t have a business in world yet so I have never had to exchange Linden dollars for US dollars. My payment info is on file and I have always assumed that when turning Linden dollars into US dollars that my credit card/debit card would be credited. The Lindex says there is a 3.5% charge to turn in world money into US currency per transaction. Is this how it works or must we use Paypal account to convert the funds?
http://www.slexchange.com offers a currency exchange rate also which at the moment is about 280-290 Lindens per $US. I have always wondered why this site which is apparently linked to Second Life can offer on average about 100 more Lindens per $US. This site also holds my payment info and can convert my Linden balance into US currency. I’m not sure if the money would be directly deposited into my bank account by crediting my debit card or not with this site. Does anyone know?
January 23rd, 2007 at 4:38 PM
I’d love to get a credit card that rewards me with lindens when I make regular purchases with it.
January 23rd, 2007 at 4:45 PM
@ Lynn Kukulcan, If they were to get rid of Variable rates and set down a fixed amount of lindens per L$ the game would stop growing, it would become something where everyone knows the exact value of a L$ cuz of its RL counterpart, this would also stop any expansion into other currency from really being possible since at that point LL would have to stick with the static amount while people took advantage of that putting money in in one currency and taking it out in another then transferring it back in RL during a higher exchange rate, While that sounds good for some people i guess it would ruin SL making it a worldwide currency scam, bankrupting LL and depreciating the valuie of a L$ to almost nothing since people would always be wondering what the RL exchange rate was to transfer it into that curency to get the most L$ per dollar, does any of this make sense?, I’m reading it back and I get what i am saying but i don’t think i did a very good job of explaining it, if anyone feels up to it could they type a better thought out explanation of this?
January 23rd, 2007 at 5:40 PM
Do not get rid of Paypal!!!
January 23rd, 2007 at 5:46 PM
Actually, I think there is a very good reason they don’t do different currencies.
This opens it up to a lot more playing in the gray areas of laws, like the Euro being so much stronger against the USD, and people running spec on cashing out here and there and everywhere in all currencies, depending on the deal of the day.
Also to note, that if they started to service other currencies, they’d likely have more impending charges for that kind of versatility, while this formula works for them and is a cheap option.
Another thing that was said, that once you give out your bank info it’s two ways, that is not true. Many many many many many hundreds of businesses have a direct deposit for all sorts of means, such as transaction B2B to pay for items, friends use it for gifts (instead of gift cards that get wasted), pay from hundreds of thousands of businesses (including the US military’s only means of pay), and these are NEVER allowed to be taken back out of.
Secondly, if they were to outsource direct payments, many companies use software that deletes out all info once the transfer is complete if you so request, which means NOT stored on a backup server somewhere to be hacked. Add to that, many banks offer a ‘fake’ account number to be used in place of the real one, for one time uses, many times for no charge.
January 23rd, 2007 at 5:47 PM
Addendum: Also to those who said they can’t use Visa or MC, you are currently online right now, so you can use it for online purchases obviously, so you are still getting something instead of nothing.
January 23rd, 2007 at 5:54 PM
Chris at !!:41 AM reply
Chris of all the posts i”ve ever read yours is the most important aspect to all SLers. What will this mean Tax dollars to all of us?
Im not worried about money in so they can get money out too. I’m sure the Lindens have done enough of their homework and have been negotiating w/ reputable Banks that are drooling over doing SLs debit business that it will be secure.
I have been in the banking world long enough to know that a Global Business such as SL is a Bankers Dream!
January 23rd, 2007 at 5:59 PM
“”"”49 Ralph Doctorow Says:
January 23rd, 2007 at 2:34 PM PST
@Luth Brodie - If only that were true.
Giving someone your account number opens you to “Demand Draft” fraud which is one of the methods the Nigerian phishing scams use.
http://www.answers.com/topic/demand-draft-investment
There have been movements to do something about it, but it hasn’t happened yet.”"”"”
You linked an incredibly useless page for the argument and are slightly (okay incredibly) wrong about the Nigerian scam.
Firstly, this little bit of info you linked, you need to reread. It’s not at a point where “nothing” has been done about it. It’s illegal, wrong and fraud to access a bank account without the owner’s authorization. What you’ve tried to say, is that there is no recourse for people who do this sort of thing. You’re wrong.
Secondly, many banks do not authorize, or will ‘preauthorize’ a draft like that if the company/institution attempts to pull money out of your account.
I can’t create ‘Second Life Sweethearts’ and start yanking money out of your account if I have the routing and account number. It doesn’t work that way. Almost 100% of the time, banks already have an established link with many of the people who do demand draft. You have to have more info than that to pull (more often than not, some sort of business or Tax ID) before a bank will even allow it. Why do they do all this? Because of the legalities of allowing even one fraud charge to come through, along with the money they’ll have to use to investigate.
We won’t even mention that those who use the Nigerian scam, get verbal authorization (99% of the people who do this, getting a stupid yes in some form negates any and all responsibility). In fact, many of them run off with thier fortunes in this way, because we can’t prosecute on taking out funds of an account if we authorized a ’small amount’ to be debited without ever naming the exact amount. They prey on people who don’t pay attention to fine print, general and vagueness. Not to mention people who would give out pertinent bank info in emails and phone calls.
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:04 PM
Perhaps they’ll let us shift our dollar balances into an interest bearing mutual fund like we do at Paypal, TDAmeritrade, and other such financial sites.
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:11 PM
I already have a PayPal debit card, so instead of an SL debit card I’d much rather see transfers to PayPal in
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:12 PM
truncated posts. cool! not retyping that whole post, but to summarize: an SL Debit Card? No thank you.
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:15 PM
Last thing I need atm is another credit card! I’ve never had a problem with PayPal but I’m all for more options so go ahead with this crazy scheme but also PLEASE speed up SL->PayPal transfer!
What might be more useful is if the option would let me use the credit card used to guarantee my SL subscription.
( Do you really mean “credit” card ? Are you going to be lending USD to folks now too ? )
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:23 PM
When is LLabs going to learn there are many of us that are NOT USA based………
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:26 PM
Due to connection issues on my end i still cannot reach the survey, will do so later. I will put my initial comments here just the same then add another comment later if I need to.
The basic buy-sell mechanic together with the overheat limits of the Lindex are already an excellent structure as is. It’s very easy to use and the trading data available is certainly adequate. The Lindex to me qualifies as one of the “ain’t brokes” of SL.
So don’t change anything about the basics beyond cosmetic details (like page layouts and stuff).
Adding fund transfer options like CC, DC, and B/A crediting is a good idea even if the only facility I can use are check and CC credit.
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:45 PM
First..a little off topic - could LL please tell us what they are spending their money that they are making off the lindex on since it is a quite substantial ammount? could LL please commit to only spending it on things that are directly meant to help residents…IE more support workers, more and better hardware to reduce the lag, etc…
Second, I like the transfer to debitcard/credit card idea
Third, Please please please please please please please announce your thoughts before you make a change. You are lucky to have such a diverrsified membership here and have some very well versed professionals in this area as residents and they can help you to make the best choices the first time rather than a choice that is going to cause problems.
Also any change you make PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it on a MONDAY! and not a friday so someone is in the office to help with people who have problems.
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:46 PM
Well it would be nice to use Euros, and European debit cards for the many tens of thousands of sl users who live in real economies not those propped up by ever increasing credit and debt.
Keep PayPal, it’s convenient for a lot of people.
I assume the delays are because Linden sits on the money for several days earning interest. I know the US banking system is antiquated and behind the times compared with the rest of the world, which manages near instantaneous electronic transfer of funds via vehicles such as Swift, and indeed a lot of US companies manage this, such as shareware fee payers like Kagi, so how come Linden can’t do this?
And I assume because LL is already running a forex, it is registered with the US financial authorities?
Now if they could also deal with the increase of in-world fraud too…
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:50 PM
I LOVE LOVE LOVE PayPal, but five days is retarded.
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:43 PM
Paypal is great until they decide to freeze your account and hold your money for 6 months for no good reason.
If your cashing out large amounts on the reg this is a really risky method,unless of course you do not depend on what you make in SL .
Im all for optional payment methods whatever they may be and thankful that LL is exploring these.
If your dealing with paypal and having them do transfers to your bank account whats the diff ? They have your account number and there are thousands of lawsuits against them for fraud.
There are a few people who want to jump on the bash Linden Labs bandwagon, this I totally do not get .If anything they have given anyone who wants it the opportunity to build their own buisness and profit from it .Its up to you what you do with that opportunity.Id definatley trust LL before paypal with my account #.
To the person who wants somthing for advertising by using a LL MC ..are you insane ? Who gives a damn if LL is getting rich, my god do you expect them to NOT profit from their company..or you under the impression that this is just some good will help the people platform only.Last time I checked LL does’nt claim to be a non profit organization .
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:00 PM
In response to an earlier comment on this blog re ” I use firefox and are having difficulty in filling out this survey” Well I use firefox as well and had know problems filling out the survey.
January 24th, 2007 at 12:08 AM
[...] Zee Linden put out a survey on Lindex usage. [...]
January 24th, 2007 at 12:19 AM
A clear YES to MC and Visa!
BTW, why do we need to pay land tier fees in USD instead of L$?? All the commerce done on parcels is in L$, but still the parcel fee itself is in USD. For me, this looks like you don’t trust the Linden economy.
January 24th, 2007 at 1:12 AM
done with the survey
January 24th, 2007 at 1:47 AM
pls keep the paypal thing.
its important for most of the non US users i think.
January 24th, 2007 at 3:25 AM
I avoid websites that require a cookie for access. What do they “really want”? So, I should enable cookies because…
I’m a regular and will gladly login to fill out a survey but, I’m not gonna enable cookies. I just don’t need anybody else tracking my crap and you not doing the appropriate work to receive my response.
January 24th, 2007 at 3:26 AM
And I use Firefox you nug.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:34 AM
G’day Zee
Congrats on a posting that didn’t result in FLAMING to the max mate!
And just in case you didn’t realise the other day - “Z” in Aussie is pronounced “Zed”. lol
All good - I took the survey. Nice work - we use the same external survey company at my work also. Hope you are looking to global markets and not just US.
And you could do with spending some more time in Second Life yourself - I mean some of the things you write in the blog just make me cringe knowing that you clearly have not spent much time in world. Granted it just makes me think you have a great life out of SL and so you must choose to spend your time there, I just think there could be a concentrated effort on your part to know your product.
Any ways! All good mate!
Cheers
Aussie Alex Warrior
January 24th, 2007 at 4:35 AM
8 Magnum Serpentine Says:
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:06 AM PST
I would prefer that you added the ability to directly deposit any US funds into a bank account, and that you get rid of Pay Pal.
In answer to this one.I do NOT use credit cards so are you saying Paypal users should be unable to access Lindens etc, Dont you think ALL means of payment should be used, if you dont like use/like Paypal why take the option from those who do?
January 24th, 2007 at 4:35 AM
Ohhh and PS to everyone - I am female - and females do have the name ALEX!!!
January 24th, 2007 at 5:02 AM
Do we want an SL credit card?
I think the question should be…
Does LL want to deal with all the squealing and support when people start having (real or imagined) problems with their money?
Good idea - but too many issues, and a possible overburden to an already swamped support team.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:04 AM
Ok, finally got to the survey.
Comments as in my original post #69 stand. I would like to be able to use a debit card for fund transfers. Question is will I be able to do so from my country?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:12 AM
When you click in the box and enter a number other than 1000, it frequently disappears too fast. I typically have to enter the number multiple times. (This is to buy Lindens, using the little blue circle while in-game.)
January 24th, 2007 at 6:16 AM
I have to say, the first time I cashed out I was very surprised that paypal and check were the only options. I expected to directly deposit money into my bank account. I would settle for a card.
Something really does need to change. The time it takes to transfer to paypal and then from there to my bank is horrendous.
January 24th, 2007 at 9:12 AM
My name is Brad Parker from SL Travel & Tours. I love the LINDEX, and I trade on it as much as my tier allows, which brings me to my 1st point:
1. At my current trading tier level I can only complete 3 or 4 trades a month before I’m out of tier and those are usually completed in 3 or 4 days. Then I’m forced to wait an entire month before I can begin trading again. I have been requesting reviews of my tier level every 5 business days for about 2 months now. On my first review request I was moved to resident level 2, and I have not received a response since even though I’ve requested Currency Trader 3 tier from the beginning. I’m shocked at the poor customer service because this is only keeping money out of Linden Labs pocket via trading fees.
2. Love that Linden Labs is thinking of ways to support business more appropriately by possibly re-designing the way that credits are processed. Although the debit card idea is interesting I would strongly suggest a website section that would more simulate an online banking system. If we are to consider SL as a real business opportunity we should be able to pull archived transaction history and have the ability to easily transfer money to and from accounts. A transfer system such as Charles Schwab’s Money Link would be ideal. With Money Link one has to register any accounts to be used with money link and from then on money is easily moved back and forth between registered accounts.
3. I understand the fees associated with trading however I have created detailed pro forma spreadsheets drawing out 20 buy and sell transactions in a month and then spread that across US$1,000 increments. The way the fee structure is set up is ingenious; however it provides very little incentive to grow the trading volume with serious currency traders. I strongly believe a flat trading fee for both buying and selling should be initiated. Linden Labs could continue the minimal US$.30 for buying at market which would allow users not interested in trading the ability to obtain easy market orders; however setting flat trading fees for Limit Buy and Sell Orders would provide serious traders more incentive.
4. I would love to see more timely data for LINDEX analysis. As of right now I cannot even tell when the market opens and closes, and even with my Reuters HUD which I use to keep an eye on the exchange rate doesn’t appear to give accurate information. I believe Linden Labs should provide either an area on the website or a simple web based software to allow serious traders to follow the market more accurately.
Points 2, 3, & 4 may be wishful thinking at this point; however my first point and concern really has no excuse. I run a successful business in SL and I as many want to promote and see SL become more and more successful itself. However serious business people will not be able to take SL seriously if very simple customer service requests such as an appropriate trading tier change are not handled properly and in a timely manner.
I will be sending yet another review request tomorrow and hoping that someone will finally take this seriously.
Thanks for listening (reading) and I will now dismount the soap box!
Brad Parker
SL Travel & Tours
January 24th, 2007 at 12:08 PM
“It might help us to actually answer the survey a bit more informedly if we actually had an idea of what you were thinking about.
I do feel a little uncomfortable in filling in a survey with unknown motives, only to be told that when yet another Zee Linden related disasterous community-killing decision is made that ‘we agreed’ to it.”
Yeah….what Broccoli said!!
January 24th, 2007 at 1:31 PM
Never used the LindeX but I’d like to back up those calling for PayPal to remain…. As a non-US resident, my bank charges me for any transaction made on my debit card in a foreign curreny (non-GBP). However PayPal allows me to use various currencies before converting them into GBP and debiting this direct from my bank account or other card as I see fit. PayPal makes foreign currency so convenient
January 24th, 2007 at 1:37 PM
Absolutely zero trust in the L$ and its “value” (It’s explicitly stated in TOS that it has no value… I’m not putting real cash anywhere near that). Thus, I do not use the LindeX, and I only maintain an absolute minimum balance of L$ for uploads– all commissions are paid in far more stable, federal-government backed US$. If you actually give us some reassurance about the validity of L$, then yes, I will consider using the LindeX.
January 24th, 2007 at 3:32 PM
The ability to have a SL Credit Card is a BRILLIANT IDEA! I can pay for my subscription with that instead of using my regular card. I’d gladly pay for a card.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:48 PM
An SL mastercard/visa debit card would be a great idea! Would make all the lindex exchanges worth more than just tier fees every month. Perhaps also make it easier to place your hard earned US$ back into the card you paid for your membership fees with in the first place? I realise this would only be for US residents, but still, a worthwhile thought.
Hope they get this done soon, we could really use it
January 24th, 2007 at 6:01 PM
Hi I am Usagi Musashi
And I like to say as a common user on sl LLabs can careless about us and only loves to misslead us with Linden Dollar staus and or BS PR about it …..
Love,
Usagi
January 24th, 2007 at 9:25 PM
Why is it when I see people “camping” that they can have Hundreds of L$’s… and be away or busy. But if I step away from my computer for 1/2 an hour or so, I’ve been kicked off due to inactivity? This just doesn’t make any sense….
January 24th, 2007 at 9:33 PM
@ Lynn KukulcanHow
> about eliminating the speculation market that “determines the
> value of L$ to US$?” I mean, it’s not like we actually have a SAY
> on how many L$ we get when we buy, nor do we have a SAY on
> how many US$ we get for our L$.
It’s called a LIMIT SELL, Lynn. I can specify my exchange rate for the L$ I’m selling. The problem is whoever is selling it cheaper will get sold first, so I have to wait in a que of sorts.
NEVER sell your L$ via market sell, since you’ll cheat your self out a good chunk of change since you can’t set a rate.
January 24th, 2007 at 9:47 PM
@Selkit Diller
If you don’t want your Linden$ Selkit, give them to me! :p
The value of any monetary unit is technically worthless. The USD is backed by nothing, only the Federal Reserve controls an “agreed upon” value of the US dollar based off interest rates, and GNP, that really only