Use of CopyBot and Similar Tools a ToS Violation
Tuesday, November 14th, 2006 at 3:47 PM by: corylindenSecond Life needs features to provide more information about assets and the results of copying them. Unfortunately, these are not yet in place. Until they are, the use of CopyBot or any other external application to make unauthorized duplicates within Second Life will be treated as a violation of Section 4.2 of the Second Life Terms of Service and may result in your account(s) being banned from Second Life. If you feel that someone has used CopyBot to make an infringing copy of your content, please file an abuse report. Note that this is completely separate from any copyright infringement claim you may wish to pursue via the DMCA.
Like the World Wide Web, it will never be possible to prevent data that is drawn on your screen from being copied. While Linden Lab could get into an arms race with residents in an attempt to stop this copying, those attempts would surely fail and could harm legitimate projects within Second Life.
There are features to allow Second Life residents more choices about how they respond to potential infringement beyond the DMCA. Specifically, we will add data to allow residents to compare asset creators and creation time; incorporate Creative Commons licenses so creators have the option to create content that allows free copying, modification, and exchange without having to utilize outside applications; expand ban lists and reputation so residents can share information about those who abuse copyright; and, publish additional statistics on the website so creators can make rational decisions about the health and strength of Second Life’s economy.
These are important features because the implications of copying should not be about Linden Lab’s approach to copyright enforcement. We are not in the copyright enforcement business. The communities within Second Life should have the tools and the freedoms to decide how and when they deal with potentially infringing content. Many will decide on less restrictive regimes in order to maximize innovation and creativity. Others will choose more restrictive options and ban visitors who do not respect them. Consumers, creators, and all residents need to have the final say about which approaches work best for them.
Please recognize that using the Terms of Service is not a permanent solution. Nor is it shift in Linden Lab’s support of libsecondlife (who have removed CopyBot from their Subversion repository), machinima creators, or others who have explored Second Life beyond the features of the Second Life client. I continue to feel that libsecondlife is an incredibly important part of Second Life’s development and community.
I do not extend those feelings to residents attempting to profit off of infringing use of CopyBot.
To the community, I am very sorry that we have not already completed the features needed for you to address these concerns yourself. We are working very hard to complete them and will release them as soon as they are ready. In terms of prioritization and scheduling, additional asset data will be deployed in Q1 2007. Adding in support for CC and expanding the ban lists will be deployed 3 to 6 months later. Until then, as described in the first paragraph, use of CopyBot or similar tools to create infringing copies within Second Life will be treated as a violation of the Terms of Service.
November 14th, 2006 at 3:51 PM
The People have spoken.
good to see this.
November 14th, 2006 at 3:51 PM
WTF, Cory, nice job.
November 14th, 2006 at 3:53 PM
Bout time!
I’m glad ya’ll took a stance after watching more than 200 business (some in the top pop places list) close down, and watching myself be copied to a T.
November 14th, 2006 at 3:54 PM
Before people go on a witch hunt, I would like to point out that they are only abusing the system and violating the ToS if they are making “unauthorized duplicates.”
Please do not start a witch hunt trying to AR every person using a bot that appears to make copies, unless you are the owner of the thing being copied and you did not authorize it to be copied.
November 14th, 2006 at 3:54 PM
Regardless of how anyone feels about the long term benefits of a project like libsl, it seems to me that this incident points to two facts - 1) SL clearly isn’t ready to be open sourced and 2) because of 1, letting a group of residents take it upon themselves to force issues like this by making their reverse engineered code freely available makes the project an unacceptable danger to anyone creating content for profit in SL - and as a result, to SL as a whole. It should not be allowed to continue until LL has figured out exactly how they plan to make the move to open source clients without turning the grid into a free-for-all for every would-be thief. They’ve made their point that SL is an incredibly insecure platform. We already knew that. Texture artists have been in this boat for months due to OpenGL texture rippers. I accept there’s nothing LL can do about that. I don’t accept that there’s nothing LL can do about libsl. If the participants in the libsl project can’t be trusted to act responsibly, the project should not be allowed to continue, and their code should not be allowed to be distributed. If the libsl project is so important, internalize it and put it under direct LL supervision.
November 14th, 2006 at 3:55 PM
I meant WTG
no really 
November 14th, 2006 at 3:55 PM
Does this mean the copybot has been black listed and no longer able to be used or purchased?
November 14th, 2006 at 3:56 PM
A violation of terms of service does not mean they won’t use it or try to now it is there. This product makes content creators very vulnerable. LL, you really need to give a little more thought for those talented people who create content and help to make second life what it is.
November 14th, 2006 at 3:58 PM
This should have never been allowed tobe released
whilst its good news this is now spoken of by LL has a violation of the TOS, the product has already been let out
is there a way to purge it from the system?
I have cosed down my shop and im here in world with a group of many otheres who have done the same.
Im not reopening til i feel a bit more safe
November 14th, 2006 at 3:58 PM
So are you going to get rid of the CopyBots that exist in world?
November 14th, 2006 at 3:59 PM
For a while there, I thought LL were complete cowards, seeing as they were relunctant to take sides or action, and worse yet, responsibility for their own service/program/whatever. I can’t speak for the rest of you, but as for me, there’s still going to be a strike against LL in my book, which is going to make jumping ship that much easier if the time comes.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:00 PM
I’m a libsecondlife developer, and I approve of Corey’s post.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:01 PM
Jakkal Dingo, the CopyBot itself is not banned by the ToS. The article is simply pointing out that using it to make unauthorized copies is a violation.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:01 PM
Well it only took a few hours, and 400+ comments of outrage on the blog, for you to do what the people who pay your salary have been saying since the start.
Sorry but Libsecondlife should be disbanded immediately. This copybot thing was only made known to the general residents by someone outside the group, and then the uproar began. How can us general residents be aware of all the other dangerous, ToS violating and game-damaging things that might be also going on ‘behind closed doors’?
Given the fact that you have finally recognised the item violates ToS 4.2 - how come those involved didn’t step back and think ‘hey guys don’t you think this might be a problem if we actually release this’?
I think the Lindens involved in this group should be facing disciplinary action too, because I am quite sure they were fully aware of the implications of copybot and decided not to report it.
Lewis
November 14th, 2006 at 4:01 PM
s/Corey/Cory please
November 14th, 2006 at 4:02 PM
[...] Robin Linden responded to the issue with a post on the Linden Blog here. [ Edit: New Linden post here. ] Also, Ordinal Malaprop has dedicated half a blog post to this subject which you can read on her blog, An Engine Fit For My Proceeding, here. [...]
November 14th, 2006 at 4:02 PM
Yes what has changed after a whole day of silence? You are merely restating your TOS. Are we to open our shops back up based on your word?
What’s the long term solution to the technical problem? How is it going to be implemented? When is going to be implemented? How will LL proactively protect its users’ copyrighted content? These major issues are still up in the air.
You can not expect to run SL based on good faith in people following rules, especially with open registration and deluge of quick buck makers coming in every day.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:02 PM
CopyBot is now against the ToS? Does that in any way prevent the following:
1. Create free basic alt
2. Copy content using CopyBot
3. Launder copied content through a couple more free basic accounts
4. Transfer to main account
5. Goto 1.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:03 PM
Now that CNET, Reuters and others have covered this, and noted you’ve supported the reverse engineering of the client in public, how exactly does the TOS really fit in with outside software that’s based on the same structure as the SL Client itself?
November 14th, 2006 at 4:03 PM
Amen, Chip.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:03 PM
NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Using it may be against the TOS but creating it violated the DMCA. LibSL created it and the Lindens are involved with this project. Should we file a DMCA against LL ?
Furthermore there IS more you can do to prevent copying than simply telling us it’s wrong, don’t do it. You own the platform, it’s proprietory and not analagous to the web yet.
Sorry this is just placatory rhetoric.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:04 PM
Stop supporting libsl! Simple. This library is a tool that can create bots, which sucks valuable system resources (autocampers). If LL wants to expose some functionality, do it through script like the xml-rpc/http implementations. Do not open source the client! These vulnerabilities are certain to lead to disasters, and the loss of control of LL over SL.
I work for a company (shall remain nameless), and we open sourced some code. Within a few days, people started finding exploits and shutting down servers, and worse.
Furthermore these exploits benefit just a few — how do ordinary content creators, armed with lsl & the info on the wiki, supposed to compete?
Think about this before you give away the keys to the store and go home.
Sure, you can ban people under the TOS, but what does that matter when they can be back online in just a few minutes?
What the heck are you thinking? First, get SL stable and secure. Then think about supporting geeks.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:05 PM
Ok Cory, so are we to read into this that using copybot, selling copybot and all are now violations of the TOS, which should be a bannable offense…. ??
Have you gone in world and gotten rid of the guy[s] selling it to at least help stop its proliferation?
Have you found a way to shut it down so that the hundreds and hundreds of people that got ahold of it cannot use it to cause damage to our environment?
Do you have a way to tell if its being used ? Merely suspecting someone of using it is really gona fill up your AR box more than it is now, and will go unanswered and undelt with as most ARs are now….. Reassure use. Please.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:07 PM
Has anyone been inworld lately? It’s intensely creepy:stores closing right and left, noobs freakin’ out, IMs flying fast and furious. I’ll stay offworld tonight and read a good book.
So how does one know if one’s items have been cloned when you’re not in your store? How can I file a report if I don’t know it happened?
Thanks for the announcement, Lindens. Only about 12 hours late.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:08 PM
How about, for the moment, making the server IM every avatar with “!quit” when they log on? It will at least slow down any copybot users who can’t compile their own.
And for the future - CAPTCHA test on login, perhaps?
November 14th, 2006 at 4:08 PM
To put it another way:
Think about the 99.999% of us who work within the official boundaries, before wandering off to encourage the 0.00001% who are, whether their goal or not, are paving the way for anarchy.
And why bother with LSL, httprequest etc when you can just hack the client.
I already know of bots in SL. Now copy programs. Someone made huge prims.
Why bother with SL at all? It is becoming a messy server script platform with an optional 3D front end.
Grrr. Smarten up. Fix it. Bullet-proof it. Test the h*ll out of it. THEN THINK ABOUT CRAZY STUFF LIKE OPENSOURCE OR LIBSL SUPPORT!!!
November 14th, 2006 at 4:08 PM
Thank you!
You have responded to this in a very enlightened way. Prims and textures will *always* need to be sent to the client, in a readable form, or they can’t be displayed. Period. No technical way around that. No encryption technology exists to fix this problem.
Thank you for not caving in and starting some arms race against the tools that could be used for copyright infringement. That would just waste valuable developer resource that is better spent making SL a little more stable, scalable, and competitive.
Thank you for continuing to support libsl. There have been a lot of benefits from that project that have lead to LL priortizing important problems.
If it weren’t for libsl, you wouldn’t be focusing on these new options for IP protection. It was something that was always needed, as the permission system on everything but scripts was always flawed, copybot didn’t change that fact. Everyone knew it, or didn’t care to know. I’ve always told everyone that the only real protection is on scripts, at least anyone that would listen.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:09 PM
THANK you…
November 14th, 2006 at 4:11 PM
Thank you. This does actually help, because it means that Linden Labs does still care about it’s profits.. ahem, I mean the little people
I was mostly upset because between the lack of tools and the apparent support of the use of this program, there was no recourse for us beyond the DMCA. The only tools we had were the perms system.. and to find that those are now useless? It’s heart breaking. I will now go back to work on my line of purses and see what happens.
It’s one thing to have something like GLinterceptor running around.. it’s another for a Linden approved group of hackers to release something like Copy Bot.
And to think, I left Lineage 2 because it was too difficult to compete with bots…..
November 14th, 2006 at 4:11 PM
“And why bother with LSL, httprequest etc when you can just hack the client.”
Indeed. Would you rather some hideously complex LSL lagging your sim, or the ability to use a bot, that uses CPU on some guy’s computer rather than LL’s? Bots are a way to leverage tons of client computing power for applications within SL that were never possible before.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:11 PM
Gee wiz, you can’t turn a ship on a dime and second life is now the size of an ocean liner.
In a few hours, the problems has been made public by Robin’s initial blog entry, made a TOS violation, and we’ve been given a direct response that further action is being taken by LL.
There will always be problems people, its how LL deals with them that should be judged. And while I’m not happy about the existance of the copy program, I think LL did exactly what should have been done.
I’ll go out on a limb and say that I bet we’ll see more steps taken by LL over the next few days as well.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:12 PM
Q: How does libsl benefit anyone?
A: None, except a dozen curious people and griefers.
Say “no” to libsl for now. Make LSL better.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:14 PM
Gigs,
Bots suck way more resources than LSL!!!
Push work off to the client by all means, but BOTS ARE FULL-FLEDGED AVATARS AND USE FULL AVATAR RESOURCES!
Nothing is more expensive.
Grr.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:15 PM
@ Fia Tyne: I saw a guy that made 3 giant prims in a private sandbox a few days ago. Claimed he could stretch one across 23 sims, and given the size of the third prim he made, he was probably telling the truth.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:15 PM
We (libsecondlife dev team) released copybot to other developers as a debugging tool and learning tool to different aspects of the Second Life protocol. However, someone got a hold of it (it was on our public SVN,) compiled it, and began to abuse it. We do NOT support this abuse whatsoever nor do we support the sale of CopyBot’s code. We are really working our best to do some damage control.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:16 PM
I don’t like the words “may result in banning” they should be will result in banning if they are unauthorized by the creator, which basically means if they are no copiable items and are copied, the person should be banned.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:17 PM
LibSL shouldn’t be abandoned. With anything, there is potential for abuse, and merely disbanding libsl will do nothing. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to whip up a proxy, sniff packets, and start to pick things apart. With the libsl team doing it, at least you have documented source and reliable information, which is under community scrutiny.
Would you really prefer the alternative, not realizing what holes in SL were possible, until of course, the announcement on the linden blog that you’ve all been ripped off? And I do mean way after the fact, of course.
Its regrettable that this tool will be abused, but libsl at its foundations isn’t something you can just stuff back into the bottle of ignorance.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:17 PM
Unless something is done by my tier… I’m cancelling it. I’m not gonna pay to put up a store that people can rip off.
As for Cannae…
Robin’s blog entry fueled the flames when she stated ‘Copying is not theft’. Which is a load of bull. A few hours? How about closer to 18 hours? If residents hadn’t protested, Cnet and Reuters (along with a pretty pic of Adam being copied) and other residents copying Toyota and American Apparel in protest… they wouldn’t have done anything.
LL didn’t deal with it, in fact, they supported it last night, until bad press started getting out.
But I hope you are right… LL taking more actions. Cause if not, with open registration, and the copybot being directly on a comp, I can make 60 alts, each one copying a whole sim full of stores…
November 14th, 2006 at 4:18 PM
“Bots suck way more resources than LSL!!!”
The only reason avatars use tons of resources is because they wear 5ms of crazy attachments running tons of LSL, have hair that renders to 2 million polygons, teleport around the place, have inventories of 10,000 items, fly into walls a lot and have a complex collision skeleton, etc.
The avatar itself isn’t a huge load, it’s only the way they are used. A bot has none of those things I mentioned, except maybe the physics load if it moves around a lot.
LL might consider something like avatar prim limits though, that would help with more than bots.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:18 PM
This is still a big glaring problem to me:
[quote=cory linden]Please recognize that using the Terms of Service is not a permanent solution. Nor is it shift in Linden Lab’s support of libsecondlife (who have removed CopyBot from their Subversion repository), machinima creators, or others who have explored Second Life beyond the features of the Second Life client. I continue to feel that libsecondlife is an incredibly important part of Second Life’s development and community.[/quote]
While hacking is indeed an interesting pastime, the DIRECT PUBLIC SUPPORT by Linden Lab of hacking of the client etc. just because it’s some of their more interesting “friends” doing it is bound to cause problems to any community.
It’s like living in a country where the law enforcement officers and politicians are in cahoots with the business elite and organised crime elements to test the very laws they are entrusted to create, defend and enforce.
Wait… does that sound like a familiar RL situation to you?
November 14th, 2006 at 4:18 PM
Battle,
Those huge prims exists! They were made, guess how: libsecondlife!
Alpha,
Is it bad enough LL has trouble keeping up with the problems their new features introduce, that we need amateurs hacking stuff to worry about too?
Grr.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:19 PM
Im glad you hear this cory *thumbs up* I tell you this is comforting as hell to hear really. I let out a big sigh of releif ty so much :D. *Thumbs up to LL* Ill be watching closely now…. and reporting stuff i see….
November 14th, 2006 at 4:19 PM
Thank you for the statment first of all, Cory, it is good to see you on the ball.
I would yet strongly suggest to stop all activities connected to libsecondlife. Your ownership of protocol is an enormous asset, if you can not communicate running an environment that allows business if you do not have transaction security in your protocol. If you support activity that can weaken this hard point of every system that desires an own economy, then you will appear unprofessional.
This is not the first hassle connected to libsl, as prokofy pointed out griefers that LL permbanned seem to have used the project to even educate themselves.
So you run Sl as a platform we users and businesses can use. We users and business people rely on the security of the platform, it’s stability and availability. If you intend to continue the libsl project and head for a client/server open source in the end, i think this now is the right point to tell us, the community that this is indeed the case.
But if you do so, you also need to make a statement how asset and transaction security will be handled in an open source development environment. Will we see clients designed to “click and copy” every asset then? Or will this be efficiently prevented. You as company need planing security, we do so too.
You speak of incentives that libsl gave certain sub communities of Sl users. Many of us yet had hassles like with the god mode tool, which enabled highly efficient stalking and other things. Whats a valuable feature for some is a dangerous weapon for others. Checks and balances here, if you have implemented indeed much of the security in the client, then you have to move it to the server level asap and ensure that knowledge of the protocl can not cause harm to ownership of assets.
I really and sincerely hope, that SL moving to open source does not mean the abandonment of in system asset security. I know very well that this would be the end for the in system content creators, the small vibrant community that built sl with so much creativity. The ones who do not need that security of assets are the newcomers, the rl businesses who do not care if a milk box texture is copied and reused, who only care for a click and the rl revenue generated by using SL as sales platform for rl goods. In RL, they have somethign we cant rely on Sl now. Propper protection of property.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:20 PM
The CopyBot is not something that exists in-world Jakkal. It is an external application that logs into an alt account. My only concern is that the hundreds (surely?) who turned up to certain locations in-world to clone themselves with somebody elses CopyBot (before many even understood the ramifications of the “mysterious cloner”
aren’t going to be considered in violation of the ToS now. Likewise, many content creators have bought and or freely downloaded CopyBot today (out of sheer panic really) in order to see how severe the threat really was. Provided any items copied were deleted and the trash folder emptied, I hope they won’t be considered in violation of the ToS either. I certainly tested out this program today, and am prepared to give details of my accounts, should anybody at LL like to go through my transactions and satisfy themselves that all objects copied (my avatar and attachments) were completely wiped.
Regarding the potential for misuse of copybot: It seemed to me that skin and clothes textures weren’t really under threat. But anything made of prims? Cripes. Nightmare city.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:20 PM
@battle
big prims have been out for a while. As for the “23 sim” one, that’s the size of it but I don’t know that it will even have physics outside the sim it is in, nor may it be visible outside of the adjacent sims.
Those prims are all free on slexchange
November 14th, 2006 at 4:21 PM
This is a good first step. Although I think at a mininum it should go one step further, to make any use whatsoever of the CopyBot technology a bannable offense.
I’m not sure what the final resolution should be. Perhaps steps should be taken to lock down serverclient communication until permissions and ownership can be more adequately secured.
But this is better than saying “copying isn’t always stealing” and giving the CopyBotters a pat on the back for being such smart little … people.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:21 PM
Dang. I’m not the first commentor.
But I will say this!
Hugs to all Lindens! (Except the stinky ones. Pew.)
November 14th, 2006 at 4:22 PM
Well, I also think that libSL should be shut down. I’d have a lot more respect and trust had they shown responsibility in their handling of this. They didn’t, so I don’t.
I also dont buy the arguments that “we always could do this, it’s easy” … its not easy for /loads and loads/ of people. And “we can” should not equal “we should/we do”.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:22 PM
uhm just one question…..
How the fuck woud reporting a copier save our items? I mean what use do we have he allready copied the items to his secundair account and by the time you tracked him and ban him he prolly allready transferred the items to his primairy account. He woud LAUGH HIS ASS OFF!! YEA BAN his second account, he woud just create a new one to do it again. Start thinkin pro peep. BLOCK THIS SCRIPT ON THE GRID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
November 14th, 2006 at 4:22 PM
Uh, transactions…I mean inventory. And I forgot to say thanks Cory. This entry really does go a long way to calming the nerves.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:23 PM
addendum:
It would realyl be nice to see a roadmap of development for SL, in rough points, so we can prepare forthe challenges of the future. Right now things just drop on us with rumors preparing us or no prior notify at all.
A rough development roadmap and mission statement not about investor relations but the actual operational goal of LL and Sl would help us immensely.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:23 PM
Gigs,
Avatars such much valuable server resources, and bandwidth. You don’t get it, do you? LSL is managed and can be managed. Bots are the most expensive system you can imagine for pushing work client-side. Avatars, butt-naked, consume many times the resources of a few scripts, and those scripts have other options for client-side computing.
If you want client-side computing, you have httprequest and xml-rpc from script. Focused, simple.
LL: make these LSL commands more useful!
November 14th, 2006 at 4:23 PM
Just an Idea for the Copy bot that might be useful if only used for this idea.
To use it to copy items you purchased as a means of backup(same as copind a dvd or CD), incase the database or other problems occur and you lose the item to the sim, you have a backup copy to pull out, cause the lindens say they are not responsable for the lost items that we spend hard L$ on and also some of the creators won’t be nice and replace it.
The Copy bot is a means to backup our items that we paid money for.
That would be the only reason to maybe have one, to protect our SL investments.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:24 PM
Alpha Zaius,
You and the rest of libsecondlife didn’t know if you make it freely available to be copied and compiled by posting the full source code on your website, that people would actually do so? I find that very hard to believe. You were extremely irresponsible in even posting the source code to begin with. What goes around comes around, libsecondlife developers.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:24 PM
Takes cigars out and passes one to Cory. Now all we need to do is fix those protocols.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:25 PM
The CopyBot is a violation. The people who take their time to create stuff for their good and other peoples good should be able to see it at their own risk. We as SL citizens should not go out to buy the CopyBot. We should work together to get rid of this CopyBot so we can keep our Businesses up and running.We will not let a CopyBot stand in our way of creating what is right for us. SO BOYCOTT THE COPYBOT!!!!!!!
November 14th, 2006 at 4:25 PM
Fia: Serverwise, no, they don’t. LibSL powered bots send fewer packets than that of a full fledged avatar, resulting in less server load than a full client
Fia: Libsecondlife powers some of LL’s internal messaging system testing tools. LSL is horrid, and would take a complete rewrite to fix it, as well as not being able to do the kind of complex calculations that things like AI require, and if it could, it’d drain the sim instead of a home computer.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:27 PM
There is a simple blocker of this Copybot available in general, it sends out the code “!quit” every 45 seconds or though. Its not a nice solution, but lets HOPE it’s been working when in use. I think alternativley, you can type it in randomly around your objects to help keep the use down. *smirks* this really is a “salem witch hunt”. Everyone paranoid cause we dont know if the creations we took time and effort to create are at stake. Lets see, another thing I would like to comment on.
Alpha Zaius Says:
November 14th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
We (libsecondlife dev team) released copybot to other developers as a debugging tool and learning tool to different aspects of the Second Life protocol. However, someone got a hold of it (it was on our public SVN,) compiled it, and began to abuse it. We do NOT support this abuse whatsoever nor do we support the sale of CopyBot’s code. We are really working our best to do some damage control
Wow, you guys really have this merch you are developing under control? What other uneeded “tools” have you developed that have been “gotten ahold of” Face it, if users in world dont follow the TOS, they are responsible for their actions, and if lib cant follow them, then they should be held responsible for their actions as well.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:27 PM
@Tomas: “Although I think at a mininum it should go one step further, to make any use whatsoever of the CopyBot technology a bannable offense.”
The problem is that many people had been visiting this ‘mysterious cloner’ (an alt account in world that they send commands to) not realising the potential consequences - for days before this whole copybot storm kicked off. This is pretty evident from the past couple of weeks on Snapzilla. Also, as stated above, lots of concerned parties (content developers, etc.) have been using CopyBot today to judge the seriousness of the situation for themselves.
But I agree with you. I think a notice should be sent to EVERYBODY in world pointing out that any use whatsoever from this point onward constitutes a bannable offence.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:29 PM
This raises a lot of issues that will now need to be explored, but thank you Cory, and thank you Linden Lab
November 14th, 2006 at 4:29 PM
As I tell others, it is a huge overreaction on the part of content creators, to the same tune as the RIAA/MPAA make about “music/movie piracy!! ZOMG!”.
Copyright infringement has always been against the ToS. Anyone caught doing it will be banned, and can be subject to civil and criminal penalties for doing so.
What has changed?
Nothing, except a bunch of folks getting their panties up around their armpits, artificially causing more of a problem than the offending application ever could represent by itself.
Now, let’s all take a collective deep breath, and move on to more pressing concerns.
In the meantime, if you catch people copying your stuff without your consent, REPORT THEM! If you catch people selling unauthorized copies of your stuff, REPORT THEM, and then go to http://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php and do your duty! The only way people get the message is when it is sent LOUD and CLEAR. Don’t equivocate, hesitate, or otherwise dilly-dally/pussyfoot around. PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS! Hell, offer a bounty for anyone reporting copyright infringement of your works which results in a banning or a successful DMCA takedown or a winning court case. Make the bounties tiered if you like!
Complaining about the POTENTIAL of your rights being violated is ABSOLUTELY pointless. They will be, I GUARANTEE it. YOU should be prepared to fight for them, when and where it happens.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:29 PM
“Bots are the most expensive system you can imagine for pushing work client-side.”
It’s the only system I can imagine. Pushing work to the client would require something like bots, no matter how it was implemented, since you wouldn’t want the automated client to do anything that a normal client couldn’t.
Bot’s don’t need to download textures.. Copybot for example, doesn’t ever request a texture download from SL servers. It’s really not as expensive as you might imagine.
Don’t assume that because a sim lags to hell with 20 real people on it, it would lag to hell with 20 bots on it, that is not a safe assumption.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:30 PM
The TOS ENFORCEMENT should be permenant. Selectively choosing who you hold to THE RULES, looks really really bad. That being said Thank you for at least taking this step.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:30 PM
Jesse,
I don’t care if bots send fewer packets than avatars, they send much, much more than are necessary!
And I’m not even saying don’t push computing client side, listen up to what I’m saying:
Use the existing protocols, and LL should enhance them! You don’t NEED bots to move stuff to the client, and because they are expensive they should not be encouraged.
Furthermore any development should be equally accessible to all, not just the geek-fest at libsecondlife.
Proper API’s, documented, supported and secure. Not anything-goes-at-the-OK-corral.
Anyone who says bots are cheaper than a combination of script and httprequest/xml-rpc is wrong, they just don’t understand these systems.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:32 PM
I have removed my items from SLBoutique, SLExchange, and on my shop.
coco
November 14th, 2006 at 4:32 PM
I have to say… I think it is dumb how all of you people are blinded.. and all… It’s really sad, Yes it is sad that things like this exist. But how come you people all decide to use the movies here in SL and stuff like that. I am sorry but a lot of you people that are against copy bot are kind of biggots. I don’t mean all of you because I am sure not all of you watch pirated movies here in SL. But look at that, You don’t complain about that but when it comes to your own creations your right on top of it. That is kind of sad really. Another sad thing that I might add is that you don’t even need the copy bot program to do this… LOL all you have to do is change one line of code which I have read about. So I wouldn’t blame this all on the people that made the copybot program.. LOL I would be asking myself why was this allowed… I would also be asking linden labs why don’t they do a bandade fix we are all still exposed. You can still use the program they haven’t said that they have blocked it…!?! So I am sure people are still going to be doing this. It i sad yes it is..
November 14th, 2006 at 4:32 PM
Fia,
You may not realize this, but… libsl has found many many exploits that have been repaired. We found a way to crash a client with a simple object.. it has been reported and may be fixed soon. We don’t take advantage of these exploits (that is against ToS on our part) - we report them and never tell anyone how to reproduce them outside of the libsl developer team and LL. Without libsl finding these holes, we may be seeing something like “Sorry, everyone has to start SL over.. we lost a database to griefers.”
There are many ways to get rid of CopyBot right now in SL. We are exploring these options. Some LL developers are exploring these options as well with us in our IRC channel. PLEASE do not let these handful of bots ruin your SL experience.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:32 PM
And cashed out my Lindens.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:33 PM
Gigs,
There are already ways to communicated rlsl without bots. LL should enhance those, not encourage random amateurs. No way a bot load is lower than a well-written script working through these systems, and whatever deficiencies exist is what LL should address.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:34 PM
My favourite venue to play has closed in protest. Not only do I lose this amazing place to play for amazing people, but I am also out a good chunk of change every month.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:34 PM
First, I want to thank LL for responding so quickly to this touchy issue, and for clarification of their stance on it as well. That said, however, enforcing the TOS with regard to copying objects without enforcing the sections that forbid reverse engineering the client–indeed, instead choosing to continue supporting reverse engineering the client by a specific group–does not exactly inspire me with confidence.
Oh, and for future reference, copying an object without explicit permission and NOT reselling it still consititutes a copyright violation. It is a common misconception that someone has to profit from your work in order to violate your copyright. This is not the case. Renting a movie from a video store and showing it to a large audience (the number is seven or more, actually) is actionable under copyright laws–even if no admission is charged. This is because providing a FREE copy of an item still causes financial loss to the copyright holder (who could have sold the items for profit.) While copying an object in one’s own inventory for purposes of backing up the item on their own harddrive MAY constitute fair use–and it isn’t clear under copyright law that it does–copying an object for free distribution to newbies, for example, would consistitute an actionable violation of the law. I hope SL is aware of this.
Kam
November 14th, 2006 at 4:35 PM
Unfortunately Coco, removing your items from your store doesn’t fix the problem.
All someone has to do is find a house they like, and copy it. They don’t even need to waste time going to your store and increasing your traffic whilst they browse.
Everyone who ever created anything in SL has now been completely screwed. Way to go Linden Lab. Too little action, too late, and only after community uproar and yet more bad press.
Lewis
November 14th, 2006 at 4:36 PM
I do not know if you can actually appreciate the critical nature of this post. The result from the previous post had people liternally closing down SIMs and Malls and content creators taking down their vendors from malls in SIMs that werent’ closed. I heard talk of people literally going to cash out overnight and leave.. I’ll be honest.. I gave it some thought.. serious thought. I’m glad I didn’t have to make that decision.
You see, we all love Second Life. Perhaps as much as Phillip Linden does. We cherish what we have here. What we can do here. We are blessed by the relationships made here, both romantic and friendly. This really is a microcism of real life. A little tiny slice the likes that have bever been seen before. And we LOVE it.
It’s why we bitch so loud when some things happen. We love this place. Its like our child too! We care for it. We want to see it grow and expand just as much as Philip does. We are one in that respect.
All we ask is that we get some protection. I don’t feel it was too much to ask. It really wasn’t all about copywite infringement. It was really about Linden Lab taking the stand that it was ‘ok’ to allow 3rd party software to be interoduced into Second Life that was going to ruin many people’s lives here. In some cases it would liternally ruin people’s real lives - Copybot causing loss of money they use to feed their family.
Personally, I’m not into Second Life that much where I need the money I make to feed my family, however, the point I’m getting at is that we don’t just bitch to see ourself post (though I guess that can be argued)! We love Second Life and want to see it continue indefinitely.
*GIANT HUGS*
Sav
November 14th, 2006 at 4:37 PM
Alpha,
Anyone can download libsl and do what they like. Your argument is tautological anyone: you are finding bugs that no one will find except using libsl, hardly a justification.
Anyway my real suggestion is directed towards LL: libsecondlife is NOT your paying customer, we are, the people who work inside the world you’ve built. Don’t waste time supporting a few geeks, spend the time enhancing our abilities and stabilizing our world.
Grr.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:37 PM
Fia: “random amatuers”? More like “devoted team of professional users”. And libsl IS AN API by definition, and it’s LL-sanctioned. LSL needs to be fixed, but there are things that are impossible and always will be with LSL, such as asset creation (writing to notecards, parcel prim return).
November 14th, 2006 at 4:40 PM
Fia: There have been hacked clients before libsl, and tools like Slice (cached texture stealer) and Snowcrash (general purpose sniffing tool) which were anonymously donated by non-libsl developers. People have been exploiting the protocol since the start. It’s better to have it out in the open with LL’s attention so that they can FIX the problems.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:40 PM
Can anyone confirm if “!quit” actually does work. I’d be interested to know if having an object with a sensor which IM’s “!quit” once only to newly detected avatars works? Sending that every 45 seconds is just too annoying - I’ve just been on the receiving end of that.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:40 PM
Jesse,
I’ve been to the libsl website, and it looks amateur to me.
Again, my message is primarily for LL, and thanks for serving this up: if libsl is your future, you are doomed. Your future is in the 99.999% user base.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:40 PM
I see alot of people on here talking about piracy when it comes to movies on sl.. before you go off about that, know that those of us that have had to put hours into learning how to work sl to get products that sell so we can help maybe try and pay the rent really need to know that our products arnt being copied and sold off. Agreed, pirating movies is wrong, the people that make them need it to help pay the bills, and some of us on here need our products to help pay our bills as well. Thats the reason were in a huff about this, its because some of us cant afford to hear “It got out of our hands, OOPS”
November 14th, 2006 at 4:40 PM
@ Kamael Xevious
“copying an object without explicit permission and NOT reselling it still consititutes a copyright violation” - WRONG! This is incorrect, at least for the US laws, which of course LL is under. Copyright Infringment means you are NOT using it for your own personal use, means you are intending upon selling it and or making some sort of gain off of the work, not just using it.
SL needs to fix the hole, just changing the TOS won’t protect any of us. But of course, it’s the cheapest way to shut all of you up, seems to have worked for Kam.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:40 PM
Fia,
“Anyway my real suggestion is directed towards LL: libsecondlife is NOT your paying customer, we are, the people who work inside the world you’ve built. Don’t waste time supporting a few geeks, spend the time enhancing our abilities and stabilizing our world.”
I prefer nerd. Tyvm!
November 14th, 2006 at 4:41 PM
Maybe it’s me, but I’m not reading anything that wasn’t said by Robin yesterday.
“the use of CopyBot or any other external application to make unauthorized duplicates within Second Life will be treated as a violation of Section 4.2 of the Second Life Terms of Service”
To me this means that everyone is still free to use libSL, or even copybot. However, where yesterday it would take filing a DMCA to have action taken, today you can simply point out that your item was duplicated by copybot in an AR and have action taking without the need to file a DMCA (which remains a possibility).
November 14th, 2006 at 4:42 PM
AlleyCat Studios is added to list of closed shops till copybot is gone!
November 14th, 2006 at 4:43 PM
CopyBot is now against the ToS? Does that in any way prevent the following:
1. Create free basic alt
2. Copy content using CopyBot
3. Launder copied content through a couple more free basic accounts
4. Transfer to main account
5. Goto 1.
Respond : No Ricky, because when you creat a free account or use a shared one, you use your MAC adress, so same whit a free account LL can still find you and pwnd teh ur grieferrzoooors !!111!1111
November 14th, 2006 at 4:43 PM
Fia: You forget that LL isn’t in it for the money. Look at their full name, “Linden Research Inc.” Their goal is to produce the Metaverse, and if somebody makes some money doing it, well, isn’t that a crying shame. The fact is that in a month, everything will have blown over, and we’ll still be finding and fixing exploits.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:44 PM
And this is the 100% perfect exmaple of the bigots, one who cares about their own works being used, but not of others.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:44 PM
Cory,
Thanks for responding to this personally.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:45 PM
Digital Digital:
You are just wrong. Copyright gives the creator of a work exclusive rights to copy the work. There are exceptions, but noncommercial copying can indeed be infringing. Were you asleep when the RIAA sued all those people running P2P network clients?
November 14th, 2006 at 4:45 PM
I just heard word of 81 sims closed now in protest. Can anyone confirm?
November 14th, 2006 at 4:46 PM
Of course changing permissions is clearly a violation of the TOS, I don’t know why there was any question about this. In addition knowledge of the use of infringing activity jeopardizes LL protection under DMCA safe harbor provisions.
Chip is right that this demonstrates the danger of open source in an environment lacking safeguards. Even if the group connected with libsl had good intent others do not. The first account to sell CopyBot inside SL and on SlExchange was an unverified account created on 11/13 whose profile indicates he is a member of the group “Fans of W-HAT.” This speaks for itself.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:47 PM
Oh and btw, Copybot is now against the TOS since LL loose a lot of USD, only because numerical shop are closed till the problem is resolved, in the second way, if LL doesn’t loose monay whit the copybot i’m sure LL’d to let the copybot be used on the grid.
NOW IF LIBSECONDLIFE LISTEN TO ME, PLEASE IF YOU DO MANY TEST LIKE COPYBOT? MAKE THEM ONLY RUNABLE ON A PREVIEW GRID LIEK ADITI, NOT IN THE MAIN ONE.
LIKE THAT YOU CAN STILL CREAT WEIRD PROJECT WHITOUT F*CK THE RESIDENTS AND INCRUISE THE NUMBERS OF ALTs AND GRIEFERS
November 14th, 2006 at 4:47 PM
So how do we know that something of ours was copied in violation of the TOS? I can’t be everywhere in-world to snoop around and make sure everyone who has something I made got it legitimately. Can you?
November 14th, 2006 at 4:47 PM
Loose End - it’s rumored that ESC has early access to an SL API which may have this ability. Need a knot there.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:47 PM
Jesse,
LL had better be in it for the money or they will close their doors. LL is a business, and exists to make a profit. The mechanism to do so it to create a unique collaborative social environment.
And the issue with libsecondlife will never die until LL kills it. If LL wants a protocol people can make their own clients with, LL should do that and design that, not rely on random amateurs.
Plus, LL should consider what is useful to the majority of people, not the small number who want to hook up chatbots (which, incidently, can already be done without libsl).
November 14th, 2006 at 4:48 PM
@ Gigs Taggart
No, you are just ignorant. Do you see the RIAA suing people who copy works? No, you said it yourself, and made you look ignorant in the process, you said P2P, do you even know what that means? You are UPLOADING, which is why the RIAA has a case, you are distributing it, not just copying it. Copyright infrigement is often misunderstood, lucky for us, you’re not a Judge.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:48 PM
There are hell of a lot of issues that will need to be explored, but thank you Cory, and thank you Linden Lab.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:48 PM
I still say the CopyBot is a Good Way to Backup you inventory, since what the lindens say they won’t replace when their program takes it.
November 14th, 2006 at 4:49 PM
I’m actually not against libSL. It sounds like they do what is needed here; developing things that show weaknesses in SLs functionality, and revealing them. What I AM against is the idea that they do it by showing every noob, greifer, hacker and moron on SL how to exploit those problems and weaknesses, yet aren’t being truly held accountable for them.
Way up at the top of this thread, someone suggested internalizing the entire project, and it sounds like a good idea. Let them do what they’re doing… just make sure they report their findings before anything gets leaked, and that someone else then gets on that exploit to remove it.
As for the idea of opensource in a world that has so many people all at once doing different things in it? Foolishness. Opensouring should be kept to test servers at best because, due to their very nature, programmers like to innovate, and doing so always comes up with something that is uncontainable and bad in general for the place they’re playing around in, as well as the good things.
Also, Copybot was leaving people like myself, who aren’t programmers or scripters or builders, just people who come into the game to meet friends and socialize, with the problem of paying for things that are unique, then having them copied and spread all over, which defeats the point of having them made in the first place. This destroys any chance at a real economy because people will simply stop spending money on products and buy programs that let them steal what they want, causing the creators to stop making things in the first place. And for those people who are programmers, it becomes even easier, as all they have to do is figure out how to make Copybots of their own, so they don’t even have to spend on buying that much.
People like to come to SL to enjoy themselves as much as anything else. The builders and scritpters spend hours in SL making things not only gor others but specifically for themselves, and most tend to enjoy it, I think. When that is taken away, the end result is they go elsewhere. A lot of people have left already, disappointed and dis