Thoughts on Lindens joining resident groups
Tuesday, September 26th, 2006 at 9:15 PM by: jeanlindenIn doing research for the international outreach, I joined several different groups within the currently established Second Life German community which has sparked a bit of controversy…
in retrospect, this may not have been the best method… however I would like to take the project to the next level which includes starting the Willkommen Deutschland group to further discuss how we may be able to better support the German community and I am looking to hold a meeting in the next week sometime so please look for the post!
On the other hand, I found the discussion quite interesting. A false assumption was made that my joining these groups was out of personal motivation rather than for professional purposes which raised a series of greater questions. Currently our protocol is as such, we can join groups but cannot be officers, however does simply being a Linden within a group give that group any more weight than any other group regardless of officer status? Does joining a group automatically imply endorsement rather than a professional capacity? What about “non-controversial” groups such as educational groups? And if that’s okay, does that assume that the Linden endorsement of certain groups is okay but not others? Can you trust us to make those judgment choices but does that imply a lack of trust to serve in purely a professional capacity in community groups?
And finally, I neither endorse nor discourage any of the groups with Second Life. My apologies for any lack of clarity in that regard. 
Thanks!
September 26th, 2006 at 9:39 PM
im for lindens in a group, i mean, they are people too, they have wants and desires, why exclude them from groups? i wouldnt think one group over another because a linden is in it, i see that as one of those cool wierd things to the game, it also ads to the linden’s account, so it doesnt seem so boring.
September 26th, 2006 at 9:51 PM
K. Personally I think the problem was being generated by a small, extremely volcal group of “professional complainers”.
As an actual player.. I’m a member of a lot of groups. a few I joined SIMPLY because they had a funny title. (”The Ghost of” is a classic example). Others I joined to get technical support on products (Amethyst/Sensations has LIVE tech support, amazing?). I think, frankly, the professional complainers just go around looking for something to pick on.. scrutinizing the profile of every linden, every day, for anything they can feign offense at.
The one response with the complainer being “so upset about” the BDSM group that he suggested creating a Christian group in response… that was funniest of all.. given how many BDSM people I know who are Christians with very strong faith.
Of course, now they’ll surely get their panties in a wad over the fact that you’re boostering for Germany, and not for France or Korea or something.
Just keep doing your good work, and if you feel like joining a group, and someone has a problem with it.. too bad. We are not to be judged by the comapny we keep.
September 26th, 2006 at 10:37 PM
Jean, I’ve never gotten the impression that individual Lindens joining groups implies anything other than simple personal or proffessional interest. In my experience belonging to groups that have had Lindens as members, Lindens have joined the same way as anyone else, through building relationships that warrant invitations to join. It never would have occurred to me to think of it as any kind of official endorsement.
A couple years back, when Sci Fi Geeks was first getting off the ground, we had a Linden as a member. She was there because she liked science fiction, and because she had gotten friendly with one of the officers. She eventually disappeared, and I’m not sure what became of her, if she’s still even working for LL or not, but her presence in our group back then didn’t do anything unusual for us, nor was it expected to. She was great to have around because of who she was as an individual, not because of her last name. She was a cool person, and that’s all anyone cared about.
We also had a few Lindens in Indigo Crew for quite a while. I notice their names are no longer on the roster, so I’m not sure where they went, but again, their presence was never perceived as any official endorsement of the Indigo community as far as I know. They were just people who had made friends with those of us who live in Indigo, and who also happened to work for Linden Lab. I suppose it’s possible they may have also had a professional interest in observing us since we are the oldest individually owned sim in the world, but the interaction always felt personal.
In response to your quesitons, Jean, it’s good of you to be concerned, but I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you. There is a small percentage of people who are addicted to complaining, and they’re always in search of new fuel for their fires. This week it might be “OMG! A Linden joined someone else’s group instead of mine. FAVORITISIM!!!” Next week it will be something else. That’s just their nature, and there’s not stopping it.
I haven’t witnessed the specific events that led to your concerns here, but knowing how people are, I feel perfectly confident in betting that it’s not really the fact that you happen to be in any particular group that set them off; it’s just that that’s what fell into their crosshairs this time around. They’ll find something else to complain about soon enough.
Even if LL were to be bestowing their blessings upon certain groups, though, so what? It’s still nothing legitimately worth complaining about. Phillip talks all the time about certain products he finds inworld that he really likes, but you don’t see other content creators crying foul over it. Why should it be any different with groups? If you guys see a group that you think is interesting, by all means tell us about it. Not only would it be incredibly flattering for the members of any group to receive such public praise, but it always benefits all of us to learn more about any exciting things going on, group related or otherwise.
Don’t let the vocalizations and petty jealousies of those who’d rather complain than contribute stand in your way. Focus on the positives that the vast majority of people bring to SL every day. We as residents love to see Lindens involved and interested in what we’re doing. If a few people can’t handle it, and insist on bitching about it, that’s their problem, not yours. Stay involved, keep telling us what you find interesting, and don’t be afraid to dive in and join us from time to time. We’re all in this together. Never be afraid to remind us that you know that as well as we do.
September 26th, 2006 at 10:40 PM
In real life we can have more than one persona. There is what I do while acting on behalf of my employer, in an official capacity as their employee. And there is what I do in my free time, outside of any official role with my employer. In both cases I am still me…but it is generally accepted that what I do on my “personal” time is my own business. And for the most part, it is possible to keep the two “persona” distinct. So long as I don’t go about claiming to be representing my employer when I participate in some non-work activity, my employer won’t have a problem…unless my activities shine an unflattering light on them. Since I don’t walk around with a big sign sticking out of my head saying “employee of company XYZ”, this more or less works.
In Second Life, a “Linden” avatar is easily and immediately identifiable and is generally perceived as acting in an official corporate context. Anything done while wearing such an avatar is visibly and logically linked to the company. It’s sort of like walking around wearing your Walmart or UPS uniform. If someone wearing a UPS uniform walked into a sex club, or attended a white supremicist rally, or simply participated in anything that was politically sensitive…people would notice, and it would shine a potentially unflattering light on UPS. This would be a Bad Thing.
Personally, I don’t have a problem one way or another. But I can sort of understand why some folks who have strong political/religious/what have you beliefs might be offended by the apparent endorsement that having a Linden-tagged avatar in a group implies. To satisfy those who do have a concern, perhaps Linden Labs employees should have “personal” avatars, and “Linden” avatars. While wearing their “Linden” avatars, they should only be participating in groups the company supports and/or for business related purposes. When they are off the clock, they should “slip into” their personal avatar so they can no longer be perceived as acting in a professional capacity.
September 26th, 2006 at 11:02 PM
A linden is Linden Lab.
If a Linden joins the “I am a banana” group then Linden Lab supports that group. If a Linden wants to join a group for personel reasons then create an Alt for it, just like 50% of this comunitie does.
And no, its ok to join the educators group but then again: if you join it, then Linden Lab joins it (and support that group). I see no reason at all why you cant become an officer.
Type and read you later,
aEo
September 26th, 2006 at 11:03 PM
Lindens should be allowed to join whatever group and hang out with whatever people they want, it’s stupid to require them to have undercover alts to socialize with.
But what about those evil griefer Lindens that have joined the Voted 5 group? :O
September 26th, 2006 at 11:07 PM
[...] Thoughts on Lindens joining resident groupsSecond Life 1.12.2 release tomorrow - CANCELLEDTimestamps added on top, categories cleaned up! [...]
September 26th, 2006 at 11:34 PM
Anything that actually increases the amount of time Lindens spend interacting with residents is a good thing. However, thinking back, I can remember the Suicide Girls fiasco in which an online pornography site was shepherded into SL by a Linden who acquired land for them in world, created their accounts and provided basic training and hand-holding to function in-world all far above and beyond what’s normally provided for individual customers. In the grand scheme of things though you’re actually spending time with part of the resident community and in a position to hear things first hand so I have to give you high marks.
Sidenote to Tomas Hausdorff: A lot of Linden staff get to have a free alternate account with US$25 a month in tier free (though they still have to acquire the land on their own). I can think of other instances involving persons not on staff (an employee of an investment company springs to mind) which have been granted a Linden avatar.
September 26th, 2006 at 11:35 PM
Lindens joining *any* groups gives an official ’seal of legitimacy’ to that group, as the impression to the average player, and I do not believe that is acceptable.
Whilst, like many others, I have no objection to Linden alts doing whatever they wish - within the CS, I just think it was a poor decision of judgement for a Linden to join a group on a subject that many do find offensive.
When engaging in dialogue *with* a resident group - whatever the subject - is it really necessary to even join the group?
I am quite aware that a few people have taken an objection to the stance of several people on this issue - I am one of those standing against it - but unfortunately most have taken it to a personal level to belittle me again, rather than concentrating on the larger issue, which is feeling that Linden endorsement of *any* groups is inappropriate, and can be construed as favouritism. Safer to endorse none than be accused of that, surely?
Lewis
September 26th, 2006 at 11:36 PM
Jean, I have to agree with Tomas. As long as you have the “uniform” on, you are considered by all of the residents as “at work.” And while I dont personally care, there will always be a perception problem from a bunch of folks.
September 26th, 2006 at 11:44 PM
Indeed… I am quite sure that wearing a “Linden” tag and joining a white supremacist group, or even a known griefer tag, would be frowned upon… so why does joining an ‘alternative lifestyle’ group that is considered by many to be also offensive, not thought of as a problem?
Whilst I appreciate the development of the international aspect of Second Life, I am quite sure there are better ways to have done that than joining a bdsm group.
Lewis
September 26th, 2006 at 11:49 PM
Gah… I hate not being able to edit posts here. Anywhere, where I work, we are not allowed to be involved in anything even remotely controversial, even outside of work time, and mention any association with our workplace, in case we are seen to be giving an ‘official company stance’ on the subject.
Only certain high level directors within our organisation are allowed to do that. If any media contact us about an issue, we are not even allowed to say “no comment”, just refer them upwards.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 12:11 AM
I wouldn’t think anything of it if any group has a Linden in it. We’re all here because we enjoy it and the best way to know what’s happening now is to be in it. Things move very fast around here. I’d be worried by a climate in which people become afraid to join groups, for fear of what a vocal few will say when they see what groups are in a profile.
September 27th, 2006 at 12:30 AM
Lindens should not join resident groups — that would be best. Why? Because the power of their name — the power of the game-god role of owning and writing the software on the platform and making decisions about it — then begins to accrue to that group or individual. That’s unseemly; that gives the appearance of favouritism, even if none is intended.
There is no *objective* need for any Linden to be in a group “for work”. It’s just that the forced — even coercive — nature of social software with its news dissemination and social marker capacity apparently is being used by Lindens so they can remain abreast of events. Of course they could just read resident forums *cough* — but those are gone, now, eh? And they are now splintered into so many third-party sites, who has the time?
So they justify their membership in sort of generic groups like SL Future Salon or Tao Takashi’s news feed group as being “for work”. Once they do that, they open up a can of worms and go down a slippery slope, however.
Next thing you know, it’s Wendy Linden making a personal party group to chillax with her special friends, or Thrax Linden belonging to various communist/military/helicopter/whatever RP groups he must have belonged to when he was a resident — how else to explain it? Next thing you know, Lindens are joining libsecondlife…and so are people who were just expelled last week for deliberately crashing the grid and griefing people. So what does that tell us of their own possible endorsement as a contributing factor to a feeling of impunity for such shenanigans?
If anything, the relationship of the gridcrashers to libsecondlife, and the Linden presence in it, should be the single greatest reason for the Lindens to rethink this group thing, and roll back their overactive involvement in resident groups. They need at least plausible deniability.
And tell me…how does Gay 4 Philip work out as something “for work” — or Bubs Underwear Models, ostensibly for media photo shoots?
It isn’t that there was a “false” assumption whatsoever — it’s rather that is is a logical assumption when the default here is one of Linden selectivity and feting — picking out the best scripters, content makers and designers again and again for special business, media, non-profit, and feedback opportunities, whether to appear in Wired Magazine (not an opportunity advertised in any public forums or group whatsoever) or to get a contract with Wells Fargo. Groups are how this is done; groups outside of SL with less visibility like the IRC channel are how it is *really* done.
Nobody has to *join* a D/s group in order to promote the German language in SL; they can just speak German, attend events, and, if they must join a group, join the German language or culture groups, not the D/s groups. Joining a D/s group is promoting BDSM and signally lifestyle approval and/or choices, not studying German. If I want to study Russian, I don’t join the communist military RP group Thrax was once a member of, I join the Russian community group.
Regardless of whatever Lindens decide they feel about my above points, surely they can concede this:
The SL Features Voting Awareness group should never have been made as it was. Groups involving something as global and comprehensive as an overhaul of the voting tools should have as wide an input from the community as possible. Like Events Working Group or Covenants, Group Tools, they should be formed by Lindens — where indeed, Lindens are the officers so as to control the door. No one resident should be making a group, putting himself as the sole officer, pressing 3 harried Lindens into service who may not have studied the ramifications of his associations and his agenda, and then telling the rest of us we *have* to join this if we want to work on voting tool reform. No way.
I’m not buying the educational stuff either, frankly. The Kuurian Expedition, for example looks to be an exclusive group even requiring some special secret password to join (even if a joke, it’s indicative), and is it really an example of the free, inquiring university in the classic sense of an open and pluralistic approach to knowledge — it is rather a closed society, no?
I don’t think educational groups should somehow get a special pass for being blessed and neutral and above getting endorsements. Why do they need Lindens in them? for what? Once Governor Linden sets the telehub prim, once Pathfinder orients a group and shows them how to hold their prims from returning, why remain in the group?
What’s most disturbing about all this is the way the Lindens moved the goal posts. First, we were told that Lindens can’t join resident groups. In fact — though few recall these days of 2004 — Lindens were NOT in groups. They were only in their own groups. Very rarely, they might join some very special occasion kind of group, or something all purpose like Relay 4 Life — though I would submit that there’s nothing that generic about just endorsing one charity, and only one approach to cancer — Second Life will have to be come bigger and broader than that.
Then the Lindens began to pop up in everything from Supportforhearling to Ouranos. Well, Ouranos is just the biggest and bestest building group…so there. Supportforhealing is a group helping people cope with depression, etc. — how can you not be for joining that? Well, because in RL, there are LOTS of groups for builders and many, many self-help groups, not all of whom will chose Buddhism as the basis for their helping of selves. The Lindens should be neutral — they are the federal government. It is a conflict of interest for them to appear in civic groups, especially groups with decided ideological and religious biases; indeed, such civic groups should view themselves as dangerously co-opted, and other civic groups should see their fellow group as gaining a privileged position.
It’s silly to argue in answer to my points, as people always do in lurching to extremes in Second Life, that I sound like I’m calling for the Lindens to become ascetics who never enter the world, and remain in some remote, surgically sanitized area in the Lab.
Not at all. Of course they should attend group meetings and listen in on them — that would be far more useful than them sporting the branding and advertising emblem of group membership — and giving that group clout without merit, wielding the Linden brand.
The Lindens don’t just hand out The Hand emblem to be used in the making and selling of t-shirts by every PoorImpulse Control. They shouldn’t hand out their presence in groups so casually, either.
Of course they should MEET WITH groups to hear their concerns. Of course they should visit and even post on their websites. They can interact, they can be involved and engaged, just like a government, without having to invade civil society by infiltrating only its veted, selected pets.
The old “Lindens are people too” stuff simply doesn’t wash for me. Lindens can be people on their alt accounts, their old resident accounts. They need to keep a firewall between their official role as Lindens, and their private lives, just like a government official would do, or any civil servant in uniform. When I put a plastic ID badge around my neck on my RL job, I must behave by a certain code, make only certain statements, not play favourites with this or that political grouping, etc. Linden Lab isn’t exempt from these kind of RL norms just because it’s a revolutionary software company making an awesome thing that will change life on the planet, called the Metaverse. If anything, the demands on it to be fair and neutral are even greater.
Chosen Few’s points only reinforce my concern — there is a tiny but vocal group of people who are beneficiaries of Linden selectivity that would like to portray the rest of us as jealous whiners, who want to encourage Linden bias because it rewards them, and because they are staunch believers in the notion that only Darwinistic selectivity and Spartan breeding yields excellence. But I don’t want Lindens in my groups which are active and daily grappling with the controversies of the world. If they were, they’d be signally partisanship in various platforms or issues that they don’t need to be signalling, whatever their personal preferences and affiliations. It is supposed to be our world. I don’t want them skewing it. It can’t be Better then.
The answer to the problem of having one company as a government isn’t to make it Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong and other franchulates, a BDSM Linden here, a Christian Linden there, a Buddhist Linden over yonder. The answer is to encourage the federal government to be neutral and create the space for pluralism and fairness in the public commons.
September 27th, 2006 at 1:00 AM
Hear hear!! I often do not agree with Prok, but this statement I do second.
September 27th, 2006 at 1:30 AM
I dont even notice Lindens anymore than other people.. Im just as likely to talk to or walk past them as any other stranger I see. I think most people are the same way and wont be influenced in the slightest if theres a Linden in a group. Anyone who does notice probably also wishes they were a Linden or has been in trouble.
September 27th, 2006 at 3:08 AM
I love to see Lindens mingling with other residents in a non-professional capacity. It’s a show of good faith that *they* are *us.* LL does not “rule” SL; they provide a variety of services, and some sign of engagement in the world gives me hope that they will carry out those services with creativity and compassion, rather than neutrally doing whatever gets them a paycheck.
I would rather have a relationship of creative collaboration with LL than one of mutual slavery founded upon their neutrality and my obedience.
September 27th, 2006 at 3:27 AM
I agree with Winter that this ‘controversy’ was actually another wordy whinge from a very small vocal group of ‘professional complainers’. A group so small that it is hardly worthy of the title. I don’t know how some people have time to enjoy SL in between flooding this blog and second party forums with War and Peace on a daily basis. If they ever do have anything serious to complain about God help us!
September 27th, 2006 at 3:45 AM
This is a serious issue.
I have never understood why, when certain people have a point of view, it’s “using our freedom of expression”, then when an issue arises that ‘you’ happen to disagree with, it’s just denigrated to a “whinge” from a “small vocal group of professional complainers”.
Let’s say that all those who own an island are put on a group to receive special privileges. I am quite sure that those who do would say it was because they spend the most, they are entitled to the most input… and the 99% of us who don’t own a whole island are just tightwads who should spend more money if they want equal treatment. That isn’t a whine - that’s a very legitimate subject of great interest and concern to the vast majority of this game’s playerbase.
Just like this issue of Linden involvement with certain groups.
Lindens can come and talk to me at any time about any subject they wish, to get my view. They do not need to join any particular group in-game to be able to do so.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 3:46 AM
If Lindens want to reserch, whare the Linden tag could cause a problem, why not use an anonamus account.. this would ensure they got treared like any other player.. indeed for those that neeed to get a feel for how the game is being played I would say using a Linden tag should not be allowed as reactions from other players will be affected by the tag.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:05 AM
Prokofy, Linden Lab *officially* approves of libsecondlife and participates in the group outside of Second Life.
Babbage Linden uses libsecondlife for unit testing the Second Life message framework(the networking structure) http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/13/open-source-and-second-life/
The very fact that it can be used as a griefing tool and to exploit bugs that would normally not appear in with the official client is what makes it useful and important to continue working on.
How else do you uncover those deeply burried problems in the system? You must find out how to trigger them first.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:07 AM
Lewis: “Let’s say that all those who own an island are put on a group to receive special privileges.”
The Concierge Information Group? Already exists.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:12 AM
I really don’t know how to go on this one. On one hand, I agree with what Prok’s saying, but on the other hand ‘Lindens are people too!’ rings kinda true. I mean, in your off hours, do you give up your entire persona and appearence to go have fun? Should we block Lindens for hanging out in IRC, since that’s a group (by association if not formal). Sure, I concede that with the Lindens the name can bring accusations of favoritism, but it’s either that or we have Lindens ruling from their high towers in gated castles, instead of mingeling with the community. Let’s face it here, even though the forums went under (well, partialy), we’re still a community.
I personaly only ask that Lindens be judicious and *THINK* before joining a group, “Do I need to join this group? Will people accuse me of favoritism? Could it hurt the reputation of myself or Linden Research?” I think that if they follow this thought process, we can avoid most of the aforementioned problems.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:13 AM
>How else do you uncover those deeply burried problems in the system? You must find out how to trigger them first.
So it’s part of a conscious policy to allow griefers to join this group and help deliberately crash the grid?
September 27th, 2006 at 4:25 AM
Wow, Second Life groups sure are serious business! =O
Urgh. “Oh my god! A Linden has joined the group! J00 ARE OF FAVORITISM! Throw things at him!!!”
Grow up, people.
The only thing I could say to the Lindens on this matter is, no matter what anyone says, people are going to be ignorant about this and accuse them of favoritism. Just use an alt account and do your research from there. That’ll avoid a lot of problems.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:41 AM
The group does not crash the grid and the source is open.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:52 AM
I find no trace of a “Concierge Information Group” in-world, unless it’s hidden from us regular users.
The question is whether they get special preferencial treatment (apart from the estate tools which haven’t been released to individual parcel owners yet, and the big discount of owning an entire land enabling them to make big profits simply because they already had a lot of money).
Lacking the ability to own an island (yes Jeska, I’m still waiting for that reply) means I am not aware fully of what island owners are given.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 5:38 AM
I personaly would love to see the Lindens joiing groups–be it personal or profession motivation. I wouldn’t think that a group that has a Linden in it owuld be “Linden Sponsored” in anyway, just that someone there (LL) has an interest in supporting the ideas of the group–another group that does the same thing might be just as good or better, a Linden presence doesn’t mean to me that it’s a mark of quality–or has an interest in what that group does.
Some people might gravitate towards (in regards to related groups) to one with a Linden in it, but a lot of people won’t knowtice and if they do either not care, or look at it like, “oh, cool, Linden Interest.”
September 27th, 2006 at 5:44 AM
Lindens joing a group other than a linden group, no way, keep the lindens to service and moderating the teen regions. Kind of sounds like Big Brother to me, in order to condition us, we let this slide then who knows what they will want next.
September 27th, 2006 at 6:04 AM
I could write an 800-word post explaining my stance, but I’ll just give it to you simply: I don’t (won’t) construe a Linden’s group membership as an endorsement by LL of that group. But then, I’ve never been much of a conspiracy theorist.
September 27th, 2006 at 6:08 AM
Jesse Malthus> on the other hand ‘Lindens are people too!’ rings kinda true. I mean, in your off hours, do you give up your entire persona and appearence to go have fun?
The difference is, the “Linden” identity is a *work* account. If they want to express themselves in their downtime, they should do so in an alt account. Using their Linden account for personal activities is, in my opinion, unprofessional. Sending personal correspondance on company letterhead is generally forbidden, so too should be engaging in personal activities while in professional identity. In my off hours I do not give up my persona. However, in my *work* hours, I need to consider what is appropriate for a work setting.
Jean Linden>And if that’s okay, does that assume that the Linden endorsement of certain groups is okay but not others?
No, Jean, not all group affiliations are created equal. And, like it or not, having a Linden identity among the group members implies endorsement of that group by Linden Lab. On another forum someone made the bad analogy that if people are upset over a Linden joining a BDSM group, they should also be angry over them joining the Relay for Life group. Openly advertising your sexuality is generally inappropriate in a business setting, and should not be considered acceptable behaviour. Conversely, many employers encourage their employees to participate in charitable events, and are happy to give time off/match donations.
People scream “Lindens are people too!” That’s true. And sometimes people make bad choices. There have been some glaring errors in judgement exhibited by Linden Lab staff in the past (Prok on IRC, anyone?). So, I think the answer to your question (which was probably rhetorical, but anyway…) is, no the community cannot trust individual employees to make judgement choices about which groups are acceptable to join in their official persona.
Think of it this way. If you saw an official poster in the bank advertising their sponsorship of a group similar to the one you want to join in your Linden identity, would you think it was tacky/offensive/inappropriate? If so, then it’s probably not a good idea to make your employer an ostensible supporter of that cause. Relay for Life? Supporting cancer research is cool. White supremacists? Supporting them is *not* cool.
September 27th, 2006 at 6:12 AM
I wasn’t aware there was a conspiracy theory going on; the issue is the inappropriateness of a Linden lending their official name and support to groups, especially those which many would feel are questionable in nature anyway.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 6:22 AM
I rarely agree with Lewis Nerd, but here I do. When I joined SL, Lindens were not allowed to join resident groups. Those rules have relaxed, and honestly, I see the need for them to relax. But a Linden joining a resident group DOES priviledge that group–independent of any official Linden endorsement (implied or otherwise). That said, I can also understand that researching various aspects of virtual reality worlds requires joining groups that others (even oneself) may find distasteful or objectionable. So what’s the solution?
How about this? Lindens cannot join resident groups–period–BUT Lindens operating under a name that indicates they are a Linden doing research can. Create a second last name for Lindens–say LindenScholar or something–and use THAT last name when joining resident groups for purposes of research. Then allow Linden alts with regular last names to join groups for social purposes.
It seems to me that Linden Labs isn’t drawing a distiinction for its employees between work and play that the rest of us can understand. I think we all understand that LL employees wear different hats–but we can’t see which hat a Linden is wearing at any given moment. That needs to be resolved, in my opinion.
Linden Lab has made it clear that using the Second Life name in a group title indicates official recognition of the group, and resident groups aren’t allowed to use the words “Second Life” in their title without clearance first. Allowing the Linden last name to be used when joining resident groups blurs that distinction. I, for one, would like more clarity in my dealings in world.
September 27th, 2006 at 6:37 AM
> So it’s part of a conscious policy to allow griefers to join this group and help deliberately crash the grid?
No, Prokofy, in fact you might be horrified to know that LL even pays people $L who find exploits and fix major problems that you are fortunate not to experience. God forbid you thank them, I imagine you would still default to calling the same people griefers, though.
On topic, I don’t particularly care what groups Lindens belong to or endorse. If I were LL, I would run things much differently in the first place. Group affiliation is probably the least of their worries.
September 27th, 2006 at 6:53 AM
Personally I think there’s nothing wrong with a Linden joining a group as many lindens are involved in many things beyond work in SL. But I do agree that the Linden tag should only be on when working to avoid problems like this from happening because it does give the impression of favortism wich is why many lindens use alts when not working. Then again, I bet people would still complain if they found out a linden’s alt and found their alt in several group just because they’re an LL employee. Its their catch 22. Damned if they join as a linden, damned if they join as an alt.
I think unless a Linden holds an officier status (or some special god-mode status) in a group, it should be assumed that there is no official interest or endorsement by LL and it is purely a personal interest for the employee in question when they are off duty as they are normally not allowed to hold any officer status in any non-LL affliated group.
September 27th, 2006 at 6:53 AM
I hope LL don’t take any notice of the over-verbal minority. I’m sure most residents are quite happy to see Lindens fully taking part in the SL community and follow their interests. Some people really do expend to much energy on non-issues like this. Enroll on a creative writing class or something and gives us all a break.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:01 AM
The Lindens are community members who should be allowed to be in any group they choose for personal or professional reasons. While some people might think that this is the cursed mark of favoritism - being in a group is more than that in most cases. For instance, why shouldn’t Jeska have been in any of the SLCC groups? She was our representative of Linden Lab and a major contributor to the organization process. It would have been silly to not include her in the group. Personally, I don’t care what groups any of the Lindens are in - I am just not concerned with it. They could all be Gorean Ageplay Transgendered Furrie Scubadiving Vampires on Mopeds for all I care.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:01 AM
Very interesting post, I’m glad to see Linden Lab is thinking about how the actions of it’s employees are received by the community.
Obviously we as residents cannot tell Lindens what not to do. Lindens are gods, they may as well walk around with lightning bolts in hand. If they wished to spy on a groups communications I’m sure they have the capability to do so without the need to join the group.
I am in complete support of Lindens acting as Lindens joining whatever group interests them outside of hate groups in a personal or professional capacity. Lindens ought to have the ability to start general interest groups and be officers in these to facilitate communication with the residents. Lindens can be fun to hang out with and most of them are very intelligent and interesting people. I don’t always agree with their actions though. I’ve had both great and poor experiences with Lindens.
Linden Labs is located in California, and I imagine culture, and appropriate behaviour standards are different there than they are in the Midwest US.
I agree with all of the following
Bob7k Akula
Winter Ventura
Chosen Few
Vudu Suavage - has a wonderful post that puts it the way I see it, “I love to see Lindens mingling with other residents in a non-professional capacity. It’s a show of good faith that *they* are *us.* LL does not “ruleâ€? SL; they provide a variety of services, and some sign of engagement in the world gives me hope that they will carry out those services with creativity and compassion, rather than neutrally doing whatever gets them a paycheck.
Draco18s Majestic - agreed
I would rather have a relationship of creative collaboration with LL than one of mutual slavery founded upon their neutrality and my obedience. ”
Albion DeVaux
I partially agree with these
Tomas Hausdorff - Lindens should not need to have separate avatars.
Sam Brodie - Just because you’re on the clock doesn’t mean you cease to exist as a person.
Baba - I really like libsecondlife, and apparently it has received some official use, which is very strange as it, and all of it’s users are TOS violators, and subject to banning from SL.
I’m disagreeing with almost every word you are saying here.
Lewis Nerd
Prokofy Neva
I love Second Life, it’s not something I want to see the employees of Linden Lab do for just a paycheck. I want to see the Lindens care about what they do. I believe most of them do care about it. SL is the worlds most successful 3dmuck, and one of the first implementations of the metaverse. I always want to see it improve and I thank Jean Linden for asking out opinion here.
We do need the ability to edit posts and see the previous versions of what someone else has posted. I do want the forums back. I want to see better integration of the website, SL, the blog, and the wiki as multiple logins and the unaccountably of the current situation suck.
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.. `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
.. (_Y_.)’ ._ ) `._ `. “-..-’
.. _..`–’_..-_/ /–’_.’ ,’
.. (il),-” (li),’ ((!.-’
September 27th, 2006 at 7:02 AM
Darn you Lindens for removing the spaces in my Ascii art.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:02 AM
If it hadn’t have been for the observations of one resident, this whole issue may never have been discovered in the first place.
Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean others don’t - and more importantly, doesn’t mean we are not allowed to.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 7:05 AM
The initial outcry on the forums about this issue was full of logical conflation, as usual, from the people initiating the outcry. You’ll note that the title of one of the related threads on another well-known forum was “BDSM Linden!” The person making that particular outcry is known to have a strong bias against bdsm mores and has attributed bdsm culture as being at the root of major political power grabs in SL. Again, this is “logical conflation”, a fallacy in logical argument. I urge people not familiar with the concept to go look up the term on wikipedia or some such. Why was the outcry because of Linden membership in a bdsm group and not any other group?
Regardless, I can understand why some on this thread are against Linden membership in any resident group (which should have been the entire point made in the collective outcry, without conflating it with other issues such as bdsm or griefer groups or whatever). It is a simple fact that regardless of the Lindens’ motivations for joining resident groups, many people *will* perceive such membership as a tacit endorsement of those groups.
On the other hand, I can also see Lindens’ reasoning for joining resident groups for “research”. They want to keep their finger on the pulse of certain groups, or a sampling of groups in certain demographics, by being able to watch the conversation of those groups. This is a legitimate need and can help the Lindens in various ways.
My suggestion to satisfy the concerns of people on both sides of this issue is this. Since the Lindens have access to the source code and the “god” tools, why not enable the Lindens to join groups *silently*. As in; you’re not listed as a member of the group and the group might not even know that you’re there, but you can “listen in” to the group communication nonetheless. Yes, some will have privacy concerns about this, but it seems to me the lesser of two evils. LindenLab gets what it needs (research) and the residents who are concerned with some groups being perceived as having greater favor or endorsement get what they need, too.
Frankly, it also empowers LindenLab to spy on suspected/reported “griefer groups”, of which there are still several, at least, operating in SL. I’m all in favor of LindenLab being able to catch the organized griefers and get them banned even if it means they might overhear my group chatting about social issues.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:08 AM
Whilst the issue was raised because a Linden was identified as being part of a bdsm group, the bigger issue here is official Linden involvement in *any* group. My concern is the bigger issue, my feelings on bdsm are irrelevant here.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 7:12 AM
I could care less. I’m with whoever pointed out that there is a small but vocal minority who freak out anytime they see a Linden name outside the grid, be it a blog, a forum, a chat room or group. It’s ridiculous. They validate their whinning by calling it “favouratism”. These are the same people who insist that SL is a world (which it clearly isn’t) and having a linden in your group is like a government endorsement. The rest of us just do our thing without noticing or really caring what the lindens do or don’t do… which I think is healthy.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:19 AM
Jennyfur Peregrine>The Lindens are community members who should be allowed to be in any group they choose for personal or professional reasons. While some people might think that this is the cursed mark of favoritism - being in a group is more than that in most cases. For instance, why shouldn’t Jeska have been in any of the SLCC groups?
The “Lindens” are present in SL in the capacity of employees of Linden Lab, not as private community members and should act acting as such. Regardless of how you personally feel, they are representing Linden Lab in their activities. If they wish to participate in SL in a personal manner, then they should do so under their personal accounts — not the account that should be reserved for business purposes. The “Linden” accounts are not in SL for personal reasons, they are there in order to do a job.
I don’t think anybody’s seriously arguing that Jeska shouldn’t have been able to join the SLCC group *if she were involved in administration of the event* and here membership in that group were important to executing her tasks *in that capacity*. Similarly, I don’t think anyone would dare suggest it would be appropriate for her to join a group titled “Let’s Eliminate From SL”. Regardless of how they personally feel, that would be inappropriate.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:26 AM
Baba and the Libsecondlife group is classic and primary example of why Lindens should NOT be in resident groups. The second you ask any kind of question about libsecondlife’s goals or legitimacy/aid to griefers…they trot out ‘Babbage Linden is a member’ and some (in a forum thread I was once in) even go so far as to claim their group is ‘Linden Blessed’ since it has linden members.
LL employees need to stay out of things, especially controversial groups (anything to do with politics, sex, or polarized situations, ala libsecondlife and GPL), so as not to allow group members to use them as shields or to shut down conversation on topics. Also, LL should NOT be giving ‘*oficially* approves’ status (as Baba claims they have to libsecondlife) to ANY resident project…this is clear favoritism to the extreme…where do the rest of us go to get LL to officially approve our groups and absolve us of blame when members of our group use our group’s work to grief SL? Other groups have been disbanded or banned in their entirety for things their members have done….libsl doesn’t get a second look when their work is used improperly. LL needs to enforce TOS fairly across the board.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:31 AM
Don’t get me wrong, this is not an anti-Linden stance. There are a few lindens I have met ingame that I’d have no problem being in a group with…they seem to be really cool people to talk to.
However, that would still give the impression of favoritism and could be used by some members to misrepresent their group as being somehow more priviledged than other similar groups…and this divisiveness is not a good thing to promote.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:32 AM
Having a Linden in your group - or even a Live Helper - has a tremendous effect on that group, even if that Linden or Live Helper doesn’t actively participate in it. One must keep in mind that the range of possible experience in SL is highly compressed compared to real life, so seemingly innocent acts and small events can take on huge importance.
Participation of Live Helpers and/or Lindens in community groups should therefore be done with the utmost forethought with regard to the possible affect or influence such participation would have on the group itself or the community with which that group interacts.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:32 AM
Jean post is about a Linden joining a group but also about the project to support the German communiy
As all the above posts comment a Linden joining a group I would like to say that it is indeed a good idea to support members/communities who do not speak English
Because I speak German and Spanish, at times I help new members who do not speak English to find their way in SL and it happens that people react “irritated” when they hear that another language than English is spoken (the being irritated goes from comments slightly aggressive to direct claiming the ones should speak English as THIS is an English community and they want to understand what is being said)
These reactions are not an exception. The same happens when I am visiting places with Spanish speaking members
More and more european and latein american people are joining SL and it is a hard for them
a) all SL menus are in English
b) there are no Help menus in some other languages
c) theres are no Live Helper, classes, welcome areas etc in other languages
d) shops, services, entertainment etc is written in English
I am not saying SL should offer at least German, Spanish, French (the Japanese community seems to be a big one too) in a very short period, but I do wish to bring this point to the front. And I would like to see a kind of campagne (started from SL or from other groups) which goal is to sensibilize the members to be more open, more tolerant towards persons from other countries than USA
We can only win from each other when we have use the chance to have contact to other cultures
btw Ramos has developed a translator tool, some few clubs are using it already and it is a good help. More such translators all around SL would be a good idea, maybe also one developed and offered from Linden Lab oficially
Finally I would want to ask Linden Lab to not only advertise in Europe to win more new members but also to care that they feel welcome in this community
Kind regards to all
Isis
September 27th, 2006 at 7:34 AM
Fushichou Mfume - If the Lindens are joining a group I want to see them as a part of the group that interacts with it. Just having a Linden observer being an invisible member would be creepy.
Come to think of it I wonder if I haven’t seen evidence of an invisible Linden. Over at IDP, a private island sim, there were 50 main agents, I think that means avatars, and at the same time there was one child, I always took a child to mean avatar present in the next sim over, but as IDP is a private island I wonder if it wasn’t a Linden.
Lewis Nerd - really Lewis, it’s not as if no one knew Lindens were members of groups before the person to whom you refer made an issue of it.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:35 AM
And it appears that closing the general purpose forums have bought the Lindens nothing; instead, here we all are.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:44 AM
My thought on “work persona” vs using an alt account is this:
In rl, I have the same name whether I’m working, or hanging out at a bar. Obviously, I don’t flash my employee ID badge at the bar, but “regulars” would still know that I’m employed at company “xyz”.
I don’t have an opinion either way, yet, about whether or not, Lindens should join groups…Just that if they do, they shouldn’t be required to use an alternate account. Maybe an aside question would be: do Lindens use they’re “Linden name” off-the-clock?
September 27th, 2006 at 7:46 AM
I don’t specifically have a problem with Lindens being involved in groups where they are helping - such as Guy Linden and the “Burning Life” group - but I would seriously question their involvement in any groups that could or are seen as controversial by many.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 7:50 AM
What I’d really like to see happen is the creation of a Linden Liason system for groups, so groups can request that a Linden join them, preferably a Linden that has common interest in the theme of the group. This would allow groups to feedback to the Lindens and allow the Lindens to participate in the group system. (Well, there might need to be a few groups that get turned down, such as groups based on Hate.)
I know I wouldn’t percieve the ‘favoritism’ if I could ask a Linden to join my group and know that any other group could do the same.
September 27th, 2006 at 7:51 AM
Raudf… that is not a bad solution to the problems that are being raised.
Lewis
September 27th, 2006 at 7:53 AM
I think its great to see Lindens joining groups, although they must be careful of what they join, such as NOT joining a Gorean Group or a BDSM Group. It also shows they are human like the rest of us. I have met Lucy Linden as she is a fellow Aussie.
I also got to meet Phillip Linden through one of these groups and he asked this sexy Vampyress to sit next to him. His RL pic is quite cute!! ;o)
September 27th, 2006 at 7:56 AM
I think that makes perfect sense, Raudf! With a few limitations (griefer groups, hate groups), that would work fine. Do I need a Linden in any of the groups I am officer in, not really and I would not ask, but your idea enables equality and eliminates the ‘we’re official and important to LL because XXXXX Linden is a member’ mindset that at least one poster has shown.
September 27th, 2006 at 8:39 AM
Just as simple :
nearer at the consumers, maybe a better communication to them.
Communication is the Word of teh Furture…so they are imho allowed to join.
September 27th, 2006 at 8:41 AM
Lewis Nerd And Prokofy Neva’s shrill demands aside -
This is still the United States of America, where people have First Amendment Rights, including Freedom of Association and Freedom of Expression.
For a Linden Labs employee to join a group for personal reasons, is really no different than associating with that group and expressing his/her association. It’s no different than belonging to a specific church, and wearing a crucifix to work.
If any employee’s actions on the behalf of a group unduly affects his or her work, then Linden Labs can take corrective steps or discipline that employee for that incident. If it becomes a pattern, then the employee can be disciplined. That would happen whether or not the employee expressed their association via formally joining the group.
Linden Labs should only restrict employees from running ‘resident groups’ on company time, and restrict employees from claiming official Linden Labs endorsement of the group, groups’ aims and goals, and status due to a Linden Lab employee being in the group. That’s it. “Keep professional life professional and personal life personal”.
America - where we are free to believe, participate, associate, join, express - even if someone else disapproves of (or feels are ‘controversial’) our beliefs, participation, associations, joining, or expressions.
September 27th, 2006 at 8:50 AM
This is a question of corporate professionalism.
Any person in RL who has to wear a name tag or security badge or uniform or company provided polo shirts with company logos has probably had the informal chat or formal training session or the written guidelines (that you have to sign) stating you cannot wear these items during your off hours.
Most companies will look the other way, if you forget and stop by the grocery store on the way home. But the companies would definately take notice of a photo of you (wearing your company polo shirt) on the internet in a topless bar or even better, a photo of you (wearing your uniform) in the local paper slinging buckets of blood on people wearing fur coats because you think that clothing choice is cruelity to animals.
We all have different states/persona’s that we cycle through each day/week/month/year. I read this quote once (sorry, forgot who) where this woman said: “I wake up as a lover, fix breakfast as a mother and dress for work as a manager.” In RL, my sibling and family are coming to visit soon. For a few days, I will be an Uncle. Technically, I’ve been an Uncle for years, and will be until I die. But I don’t function as an Uncle but for a few days a year. At work, I don’t insist that people refer to me as an Uncle.
SL gives all of us the ability to easily have multiple identies that we can use to fully pursue aspects of our lives. Your main account can be a professional artistic sculptor that leads a simple monastic-style existance and focuses on your art and belongs to groups that meet and discuss “the presence of absence”. You can have an alt that is an avid party animal/clubber who wears the latest hot fashions and belongs to groups that keep each updated on where the hot party is. You can have an alt that likes to dress up in duck suits and snorkling fins and belongs to groups that discuss “feathers”. It is your choice if other people know that you have multiple identies in SL.
Linden Labs is a company that employees people who create/monitor/fix Second Life. The employees are Lindens. From a professional standpoint, Lindens should never join any group or participate in any discussion that is not soley related to SL or “work”.
The people who are LL employees have the ability to create alts that allow them to pursue whatever they want in their private life.
The two should never cross. Just like a UPS person should never wear his/her uniform in a topless bar.
If LL decides they need to do research on people who wear duck suits, they should first approach those groups and ask if they could host a meeting to get feedback. Any other activity has Big Brother connotations that I personally am uncomfortable with.
September 27th, 2006 at 9:03 AM
The thing is, sometimes the Lindens do endorse certain events and/or groups. Take, as a recent example, Philip Linden speaking at the World Peace Day event sponsored by Imagine Peace. It’s definitely an endorsement of the event, and by extension the group. Philip is also a member of several groups - most of them are Linden-related but several are not, including Support for healing, Second Life Film Society, and Free Culture. You could call that an endorsement of those groups, if you wanted to.
The question is, is this endorsement inappropriate? Hard to say. Is a Linden endorsement (even an implied one) inappropriate for any group, or only for groups that offend people? And where do we draw the “offensive” line? While the vast majority of residents would have no problem with endorsing World Peace Day, I have no doubt that there are a handful of people in SL who find World Peace Day, and even the very concept of world peace, to be deeply offensive. (On the Internet, everything is offensive to someone.) So if even one person finds a group offensive, should that bar Lindens from the group? I don’t think so, but others might.
September 27th, 2006 at 9:07 AM
^ Exactly right.
September 27th, 2006 at 9:22 AM
I`ve read through all of the comments that were here when I loaded this page, and I find that my views are already expressed better than I could express them myself. I see both sides of the issue, and even agree some with a little of what the “opposition” has to say, but this is how things stack up for me:
Agree:
Bob7k Akula
Winter Ventura
Chosen Few
Brenda Archer
Vudu Suavage
Baba
Jon Rolland
Jesse Malthus
Draco18s Majestic
Michael Kasei
Albion DeVaux
Jennyfur Peregrine
Aslan Pertwee
Ipenda Keynes
Raudf Fox
Mostly Agree:
Tomas Hausdorff
Sam Brodie
Ricky Zamboni
Ron Overdrive
Somewhat Agree:
Albion DeVaux
Kamael Xevious
Fushichou Mfume
Ricky Zamboni
Somewhat Disagree:
Maklin Deckard
Mostly Disagree:
Lewis Nerd
Prokofy Neva
Bujila Rampal
September 27th, 2006 at 9:34 AM
My “exactly right” was in regards to Perrin Figtree’s excellent post. Damn moderation queue…
September 27th, 2006 at 9:50 AM
This is a very tough call, as any Linden can log in as an alt and join any group. Regardless of social, economic, governmental, or educational group affiliation. Yes I do believe any Linden joining a group does, automatically imply endorsement for that group. That is to say generally speaking. I do believe that would be the general consensus. As ppl in SL generally take things at face value. Personally I will be viewing any affiliations with Lindens in groups on a case by case basis.
September 27th, 2006 at 10:18 AM
Good gracious. And I thought feedback for MMO’s like EvE was nit-picky. No professional complainers here, no no…
Two schools of thought in this regard, obviously:
- SL, like any MMO, has a balance imposed by its “rules” (here, mainly the economy, prim/land allocation, and in-sim physics), making the LL gods exactly that — people who can be appealed to in order to change the universe. In that light, Linden staff joining your group is like Apollo or Arjuuna coming to a poetry reading. A very big deal.
- SL, unlike any other MMO, is a collaborative fabric. Its fundamental dynamic is creational, rather than RP. Any RP that occurs within derives from sub-environments created by residents for that purpose. The LL gods are then not at all like gods, but just tourists with a couple of choice passwords for emergencies.
This doesn’t shake down into immersionist vs. augmentalist, really, because either of those camps could see this situation either way. I think it likely, however, that immersionists are more likely to get bent out of shape because they create notions of rank and seniority as part of their RP experience, but I also think that’s a matter of maturity.
Unfortunately, both points of view have merit precisely because the world belongs to everyone. In such cases, I think it best to return to the goals and see what solutions may emerge that fit the constraints better. If the goals are information gathering, we could suggest marketing and building an informational group, whose activities are nothing but.
The trick is the former — if there are established groups you could join right away and reach everyone there, it’s really hard to rationalize starting from scratch, particularly when in-world communication is otherwise so ad hoc.
About the best I can do is to suggest, for these purposes, any of the following:
- Synthetic, purpose-made, LL-identified avatars. These are clearly Linden employees, but it’s not clear which ones they are or if they are indeed any one person in RL. Sounds cheezy to have “German Comminity Helper Linden” (or worse, “Random Linden #564″) but it gets the point across.
- A in-world Linden code of conduct, clearly enumerating what a resident can expect from a Linden in-world in RP, social, and official capacities. This isn’t so much enforceable rules for the Lindens as it is information for people who may come in contact with them — a covenant, a bill of rights, if you will.
- A group feature that indicates “Lindens Welcome” and/or a visible attribute that says “Lindens In Group” and/or “Lindens In Group Chat”, with “Linden Entering Group Chat”, etc. messages on group channels. Again, not so much to corral or limit the Lindens but to ease the minds of people who might encounter them.
This last one has its points but it also, of course, may serve to aggravate the situation. By announcing/listing things in this way the impact of Lindens in these capacities may be artificially magnified.
None of these are great, but I think they might help. Best of luck.
September 27th, 2006 at 10:18 AM
Jean, rather than just listening to all of us, why d